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Does Flugelhorn Playing Help or Hurt Trumpet Embouchure?


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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:18 am    Post subject: Does Flugelhorn Playing Help or Hurt Trumpet Embouchure? Reply with quote

I really like the Flugelhorn sound, esp. in the lower register. Lately I'm spending about the same amount of time on the Flugel as the Trumpet.

Question: Does time on the Flugelhorn reinforce or detract from my trumpet embouchure development?

I use very similar rim sized MP's but of course everything else is different, cup depth, rim shape, etc.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Does Flugelhorn Playing Help or Hurt Trumpet Embouchure? Reply with quote

ECLtmpt2 wrote:
I really like the Flugelhorn sound, esp. in the lower register. Lately I'm spending about the same amount of time on the Flugel as the Trumpet.

Question: Does time on the Flugelhorn reinforce or detract from my trumpet embouchure development?

I use very similar rim sized MP's but of course everything else is different, cup depth, rim shape, etc.


I found that if I play flugelhorn properly, it helps my trumpet playing. That said, there are a lot of variables in horn setup, approach, etc.

I started my journey by finding a flugelhorn setup that "flowed" rather than one where I was constantly "holding back." In other words, the setup allowed a natural feeling of resistance when I would let my air "flow" through the horn. Not pushed or held back. When I found that and developed an embouchure and approach that produced a nice sound, it brought great advantages to my trumpet playing. The most obvious one is that my sound on trumpet became very much more resonant and clear, while requiring much less effort.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian brings up a great point. What is the bore of your flugelhorn and what is the bore of your trumpet? Some flugels are more open and feel less of a change from the trumpet.
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. I have a couple of trumpets (and Flugels) but the Flugel I'm playing the most is a Yam. 631, bore .433, and my 'mostly' go to Trumpet is a Bach Strad. 180/37 ML, bore .459.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've not found it to either help or hurt. But I've never really played more flugel than trumpet.

My teacher tells of a wedding where he got roped into playing an extended set of standards on the flugel in advance of the ceremony. On short notice, he had to switch from flugel to picc. He said that was a particularly difficult transition.
Although all the notes came out he confesses that it was a serious struggle and that it took him some time to get his chops out of flugel mode.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ECLtmpt2 wrote:
Thanks guys. I have a couple of trumpets (and Flugels) but the Flugel I'm playing the most is a Yam. 631, bore .433, and my 'mostly' go to Trumpet is a Bach Strad. 180/37 ML, bore .459.


No extremes there. So probably nothing to worry about.
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps I was over thinking it but I appreciate the input. TY
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only have issues when I try to treat the flugel like a trumpet and end up bashing my chops. If I avoid forcing the sound, and relax my embouchure a little and think of a warmer airstream to get that fluffy flugel sound it actually helps when I pick up the trumpet again. I have the same rim on both mouthpieces, which also helps. My flugel has a trumpet-sized bore (.460") but I don't think that's as much of a factor as my mental approach to the horn.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's also possible to "fall in love with your sound" on flugelhorn, pursue the darkest, most luscious sound possible, and in doing so unconsciously make changes in your embouchure that don't work so well on trumpet. I enjoy playing flugelhorn and play it enough to be comfortable on it when I do, but I always keep in mind that trumpet is home base.
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
I think it's also possible to "fall in love with your sound" on flugelhorn, pursue the darkest, most luscious sound possible, and in doing so unconsciously make changes in your embouchure that don't work so well on trumpet. I enjoy playing flugelhorn and play it enough to be comfortable on it when I do, but I always keep in mind that trumpet is home base.


Could not agree more. You don't go to the mistress and expect better results with the wife.

ed
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't agree more with nieuwguyski and EdM. I'm absolutely in love with the smooth, mellow, etc. sound of my Flugel(s). The problem, if that's what to call it, is that my SO and neighbors like the Flugel sound over the trumpet practicing. I'm living in a smallish retirement community 'villa' these days and the villas are not connected but pretty close to each other.

When it's time to get the Flugel out I'm warmed up and ready to just play some 'easy listening' music or maybe some Concarne. I want the best of both worlds but deep down I have the feeling my Flugel time is not very supportive of the work on my trumpet embouchure.
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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The flugel is your friend,
the trumpet is your spouse.
Don't mix up the two,
or else you'll lose your house!


The fact that both can be in Bb and use the same fingerings are where the similarities end. Flugel, no matter the bore size, should not be played like a trumpet. Otherwise what's the point?

The flow that Brian spoke about can be learned and achieved on trumpet without playing flugel, but the flugel is a much kinder, and easier teacher in that realm.

It's a tough feeling to write out, and the path to it lends itself even less to internet explanation. But I think Brian's post is a good entry point to it.
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SterlingBell
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play many wedding ceremonies. I usually play about 15 minutes of seating music on flugelhorn and then grab my piccolo trumpet for the processional. It’s just something you get used to. AND pace yourself.
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flugelhorn is my main instrument, but I practice more on trumpet. If I don't, and spend most of the time just playing flugelhorn, the precision and range of my trumpet playing suffers. The other way around works better: practice on trumpet (or cornet, even). When you play flugel, you will instantly change your approach anyway.
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REYoung
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:30 am    Post subject: Struggling with going from A to B flat on my flugel Reply with quote

My primary instrument is trumpet. I have a Silver King Flugel. I have played it when I initially got it and didn't have this problem. I have been really working on my trumpet. Since I have been working on my trumpet, I have not been able to go from second space A to third line B flat on my flugel. They both sound as the A. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,

Richard
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Struggling with going from A to B flat on my flugel Reply with quote

REYoung wrote:
My primary instrument is trumpet. I have a Silver King Flugel. I have played it when I initially got it and didn't have this problem. I have been really working on my trumpet. Since I have been working on my trumpet, I have not been able to go from second space A to third line B flat on my flugel. They both sound as the A. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,

Richard


Richard,

Of course we cannot tell why you are having this problem until we see you play. Still, when I have problems with intonation, it's usually because I''m playing with too much tension and too high in the center of the notes of the scale. The problem notes appear out of tune because they have less room to play sharp and so don't fit into the scale.

I find that, if I tune to Concert A (second valve), I can improve or correct the problem because that note has the smallest note center.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Flugelhorn Playing Help or Hurt Trumpet Embouchure? Reply with quote

ECLtmpt2 wrote:
Question: Does time on the Flugelhorn reinforce or detract from my trumpet embouchure development?

I use very similar rim sized MP's but of course everything else is different, cup depth, rim shape, etc.


Only got a flugelhorn recently, so I cannot speak from much experience yet, but it may be the mouthpiece. I too play a mouthpiece of a similar rim size but a much, much deeper cup. I've been using that same cup on trumpet as well, and I've noticed that playing it exclusively for longer periods of time made it harder to play shallower cups.

What I do now is to play my warm up exercises on my regular trumpet mouthpiece, and only then switch to the deep flugel cup. I've found that to be helpful to avoid messing up my base trumpet embouchure (though admittedly, I'm still working on solidifying that properly). As long as I keep playing the various cup depths regularly, switching between them remains doable.

The flugel also came with an antique very shallow mouthpiece which made it a lot easier to play...but it also makes the flugel sound like a kazoo so I'm not planning to use it much.
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REYoung
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:44 am    Post subject: Struggling with going from A to B flat on my flugel Reply with quote

Thanks Brian. I have even taken my flugel mp and used it in a Pan American (looks like a trumpet in every way but takes a cornet mp) and it played beautifully on my Pan American horn. That is why I am wondering what it is that is causing me the problem. I realize you said it is hard to help me because you haven't seen me play. I do appreciate and and all suggestions that will help me resolve this so I can truly enjoy my flugel more!
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When playing lead trumpet in a big band years ago, we played certain charts on flugel, and I also chose it for a solo here and there. It was a nice break and I actually felt refreshed when returning to the trumpet for the next piece. I suspect it was a function of the different mouthpiece, more melodic, relaxed, expressive music, and a slightly different embouchure being used.
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Last edited by Dale Proctor on Tue May 04, 2021 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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REYoung
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Struggling with going from A to B flat on my flugel Reply with quote

How do I develop my embouchure for flugelhorn, that is different from my trumpet embouchure?
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