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Why did Martin go out of business?


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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hermowiki, I totally buy your argument but for me that would mean (and I have been looking for one) I’d absolutely need to have a Blessing Super Artist
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin did not fail due to any poor decisions by their management during the Committee era, they fell victim to merger-mania.

At a time that, more than even before, Martin was too small to really ever compete for a large chunk of band instrument sales, Richards offered an insane amount of money for the firm. The owners wisely took it and the "insane" qualifier was shortly proven by bankruptcy. Wurlitzer then bought the company at fire-sale prices and had no idea what to do with it. They tried stripping it down to a maker of the mediocre type of instruments they made, though the Deluxe of that era escaped thrifting thanks to the integrity of those at the plant, and the high margin they commanded, but Wurlitzer soon realized Martin would never be a viable low-cost high volume venture. It then passed to Leblanc, which was really only interested in the Committee, and the Martin name for saxophones (that second opportunity never really being realized). By the time Conn-Selmer came along, Martin was just a brand on a horn, the third generation Committee, which is very different from a 50s Committee. The Great Recession just wiped out the name, the company was long gone.

Goby wrote:
The Schilke B1 was Reynold's original revision fo the Committee design. The B7 and X4 are closest (on paper) to the M bore and L bore Committees,


Not so much. The B-series was a separate evolution by Schilke, geared toward his own Chicago-influence style of playing. It may have a little Handcraft Committee DNA (not 50s Committee), but that in turn came down from Schilke's experience with the Revelation line, particularly the LLewellyns. Uniquely, he also looked to the obscure Holton Don Berry as a major influence, and of course, was heavily influenced by his ongoing interactions with Elden Benge. The B-series is primarily a French style, the Committee is not. (yes, there are some dark Bs as well, I would have picked B6 as the first example though)

lipshurt wrote:
Blame Harry Begian, or Leonard falcone, or John paynter etc for that.


Actually, Leonard Falcone encouraged students in the 1950s to buy Martin instruments. Thanks to Michigan State colleague Byron Autrey who was consulting there during the time that Leonard Smith was one of their endorsers, Falcone's students had the ability to obtain hand built custom Martin horns - no other college kids had that option.

And if you listen to Falcone Fight on the last album released by the Spartan Marching Band prior to his retirement (vol. 1), there is no way you can say he didn't like bright trumpets - that fanfare is still awe-inspiring.

Goby wrote:
Here is a quote from Horn-u-copia regarding finances behind the RMC merger: "In 1960, Chicago Musical Instruments (Olds) sold the company to a new holding company, Richards Music Corporation. RMC then acquired Scherl & Roth, (Reynolds), E.K. Blessing Company, and Martin by 1962. The merger was short lived however as the debt incurred to acquire so many companies was unsupportable with the shrinking sales of even leveraged existing product. RMC folded in 1963, and Wurlitzer acquired Martin.

From 1964 to 1969, Wurlitzer, which had stenciled and occasionally built brass instruments almost since its founding, elected to retire from band instrument manufacturing. In 1971, Martin was sold to Leblanc USA. All Leblanc research and development in brasswinds was consolidated at the Martin plant in Elkhart."


If you look to the top of the horn-u-copia page, you will note that I wrote that (yes, used with permission). How about including trumpet-history.com in the sources links?
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Hermowiki, I totally buy your argument but for me that would mean (and I have been looking for one) I’d absolutely need to have a Blessing Super Artist


Good point! I have a Blessing Super Artist, too, a 1947 horn with the underslung third valve slide ring, the same design Clifford played. I'm doing a Clifford Brown tribute concert during the 2021-22 Nebraska Jazz Orchestra season and I'll be playing a special arrangement of "I Remember Clifford" on the Blessing as the finale.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I said Leonard falcone I meant William revelli
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
When I said Leonard falcone I meant William revelli


I have to agree that never saw Revelli show any partiality toward Martin.

However, as far as trumpet sound goes, Revelli was the last of the old-school hold-outs who continued to preach the importance of having both cornets and trumpets in the concert band, and shifting up the instrumentation based on the piece and what the composer's intended sound was. (or sometimes Revelli preferred to "improve" on original intent) So while he often looked for a cornet sound, using cornets, he also looked for a strident trumpet sound in contrast to that. It depended on the piece.

This could have especially interesting results with marches, a form that I think he knew more about, at a deeper level, than perhaps even the composers. Interpretation of marches and instrumentation to support that was a fascinating topic to discuss with him.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Hermowiki: yeah, that’s what I think. I never actually played or even saw one real life but being a big Clifford fan it just makes sense ... current challenge is Joy Spring on bass trumpet.
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI: Getting back to the Martin Co. discussion: It wasn't my intention to denigrate or in any way devalue the Martin Committee or it's significant contribution to jazz. I have always, and still do, hold the horn in high esteem for exactly the reasons you mention. If the chance to own (a good) one came along I could probably not pass up the opportunity. At one time I was obsessed with owning an MC. To this point, I've heard many, many myths but never any of the real, as it is, back story. Fact, myth, or hyperbole, we cannot take the valuable contribution and undisputed legacy the MC has to jazz.

However, it is difficult for me to subscribe to the belief that the MC is the only trumpet one can play and feel connected to the historic jazz they play, a la Miles, Chet, etc. Let's not forget what Chris Botti is doing these days. Then again, I've never played an MC, so that places me in the Monday morning quarterback seat if you will.

A classic is a classic and the Committee is one because of its journey and the players behind them. Nothing can take that away.
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Leeway
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are 3 incarnations of this Horn branded as a Martin Committee. The Elkhart made, first by Martin and after 1961 by RMC and then by Wurlitzer after '63. Wurlitzer moved the 3rd valve tuning slide ring to the top of the slide whereas the earlier configuration had the ring mounted to the side. Valves went from plated to monel under Wurlitzer.

The 2nd was made by Leblanc in Kenosha after 71. Lablanc made a small number of Committees in the early to mid 70s using Elkhart leftover parts. These horns were hand made by a dedicated team and there are some more differences to the Elkhart made Committees. The lead pipe and tuning slide lost it taper and the Bells were made on Martin's 2nd Mandrel as the 1st Mandrel went missing in the move from Elkhart to Kenosha and was never recovered. These Bells had the same general shape but were bigger and are a true one piece, seamless Bell, unlike the previous two peice seamed Bells. These early Kenosha Committees are a fantastic horn and have a huge, clear, resonant tone, still retaining the 'smoky' warm sound of the original.

In the late 70s the horn started to morph (as the Elkhart parts ran out) into the Ramirez redesign and 3rd incarnation of the Committee. This is the Horn that Reynold Schilke described as "messed up." It has little in common with Schilke's original design of the late 30's.

As to why Martin was absorbed into the various Corporations it did, is a story of economics in a changing world and is already well covered here.

After reading this thread, I got my old Committee out and played it. I have what I consider 3 classic US made Trumpets and they each have their own characters, each have their own subtle nuances and all 3 have stood the test of time and are revered each in their own right.
The Committee does somehow stand alone in how it sounds and feels to play. I guess that's why the mystique remains. Ren Schilke made a hell of a horn for Martin that made an impact still felt 80 years on.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ECLtmpt2 wrote:
HERMOKIWI: Getting back to the Martin Co. discussion: It wasn't my intention to denigrate or in any way devalue the Martin Committee or it's significant contribution to jazz. I have always, and still do, hold the horn in high esteem for exactly the reasons you mention. If the chance to own (a good) one came along I could probably not pass up the opportunity. At one time I was obsessed with owning an MC. To this point, I've heard many, many myths but never any of the real, as it is, back story. Fact, myth, or hyperbole, we cannot take the valuable contribution and undisputed legacy the MC has to jazz.

However, it is difficult for me to subscribe to the belief that the MC is the only trumpet one can play and feel connected to the historic jazz they play, a la Miles, Chet, etc. Let's not forget what Chris Botti is doing these days. Then again, I've never played an MC, so that places me in the Monday morning quarterback seat if you will.

A classic is a classic and the Committee is one because of its journey and the players behind them. Nothing can take that away.


I didn't take your comments as being negative to the Martin Committee in any way. Additionally, I didn't mean to be taken literally that the Martin Committee is the only connection to historical jazz. Saying "only" was just a figure of speech. Of course there are many great horns that are well connected to historical jazz: Selmer Balanced, Conn Connstellation, Blessing Super Artist, King Super 20 Symphony, Conn Vocabell, Selmer K-Modified, Super Olds, King Silver Flair and many others.
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
I didn't take your comments as being negative to the Martin Committee in any way. Additionally, I didn't mean to be taken literally that the Martin Committee is the only connection to historical jazz. Saying "only" was just a figure of speech. Of course there are many great horns that are well connected to historical jazz: Selmer Balanced, Conn Connstellation, Blessing Super Artist, King Super 20 Symphony, Conn Vocabell, Selmer K-Modified, Super Olds, King Silver Flair and many others.


I understand, we're good, thanks.
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jrpbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:54 am    Post subject: US Brass Decline Reply with quote

Another factor in companies like Martin declining was the influx of imports. I found a great report online from 1973 by the US Tariff Commission covering the increasing number of imports of brass instruments.

They tracked sales and found that demand for brass had peaked in 1968 followed by a slow decline. At the same time, the US lowered tariffs on imports which allowed them to increase from 10% of sales in 1967 to 24% by 1971. The major reason was Conn and Leblanc signing contracts with Yamaha for all their student level horns; a large part of the overall market. If you combine that with rising labor costs, the only viable product remaining for US makers were the professional level instruments.

In the late 1800s, cheap European makers flooded the market; by the late 1960s, it was Japan. Today it's China.
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
Yeah, I’m gonna disagree with “Goby” a little bit too.

First, miles Davis was a great trumpet player, so implying that people would dig a horn that plays out of tune because it made them sound like miles is a lame thing to say.


Yeah but what was Miles playing on? An RNC model or a pre RNC model that is over ten years old? I would bet he's playing on a custom horn. I'm not saying vintage Committee's are bad horns but they have nothing really to do with Miles Davis.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miles played a lot of different Committees. His last ones were the Ramirez design, delivered personally by Ramirez in whatever color Miles wanted next (the horns were lacquered first, then engraved and the engraved portion then took on the gold plating). Ramirez relates a story in his NAMM interview about having to explain to Miles that the latest color of horn was delayed because the engraver who did the work Miles liked so much had died. So from Handcraft to the final T3460, Miles played them all. (It was the player more than the horn!)
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what??

OK, Martin's line-up was transformed, and not for the better, during the 7 years of ownership by Wurlitzer. Wurlitzer bought Martin because it was an asset of bankrupt RMC and came very cheap. But, to call that management incompetent is absurd when you are talking about a company that successfully sold instruments from 1853 to 2009.

The next owner was Vito Pascucci, who successfully navigated his brands through the roll-out of titles 29 and 40 of the Code of Federal Regulations (Workplace Safety and Protection of the Environment respectively) which obliterated whole segments of the US economy such as textiles, steel and consumer electronics when confronted by Asian competition that was not bound by such constraints. During that time, Martin was reduced to just the Committee trumpet, which was perhaps his only mistake - as trumpet tonal concept in the last quarter of the 20th century was not in line with the Committee sound. The smart move would have been to shut it down entirely as Martin's cost of production was in no way competitive.

The next management was John Stoner, who successfully salvaged a great many American instrument makers from the crisis caused by excessively generous union contracts and the abundance of paid union positions that contributed nothing to product, as well as the continuing regulatory pressures and new players like CarolBrass, able to produce superior quality in merit-based workplaces while avoiding the costs of US regulation and union payroll padding. It was Stoner who, faced with the Great Recession, finally had to cut back - and a division that manufactures only one very low volume product, is an obvious place to cut if one believes in intelligent business management. With Bach LR72s and similar options in the portfolio, maintaining the 3460 for a few dozen sales a year would have been the peak of incompetence.

And advertising for a business start-up consultant? What does business startup have to do with Martin, a brand established in 1851 and the last corporate incarnation registered in 1905?
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bnbechtel
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
Croquethed wrote:
Also very famous for saying that if he could play like Wynton Marsalis, he wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis. It's all over the Internet.




Maybe it's irrelevant, but what's the opinion of the Martin Committee "Martin Brasswind" company's offering?

https://www.martinbrasswind.com/
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bnbechtel wrote:
Maybe it's irrelevant, but what's the opinion of the Martin Committee "Martin Brasswind" company's offering?

https://www.martinbrasswind.com/


Since you (curiously) chose to quote my expression of amusement at Croquethed's witty offering (which alludes to a somewhat heated exchange in another thread on the Forum) as a lead-in to your question, I'll offer an answer:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=147521&highlight=martin+brasswind

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=152776&highlight=martin+brasswind

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=155093&highlight=martin+brasswind

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=156140&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=martin+brasswind&start=40 (go to the third page)

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157239&highlight=martin+brasswind

I found these by doing a search on "Martin Brasswinds" ("all terms", Forum: "Horns", Category: "Equipment") using the Trumpet Herald's search page, and then weeding out the irrelevant topics.

There may not be many people who can offer an opinion based on hands-on playing experience because, given the size of the company and the price they're asking, there may not be many horns sold or inventoried yet.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I've been very interested, but I haven't come across anyone that's played one. Nice, alluring photos but the ad interview doesn't give me much confidence in the customer service part of it. Surely, they can do better with their only video of the product and of the company's top leadership. Made by BAC, though, so the product may be good.
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bnbechtel
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
bnbechtel wrote:
Maybe it's irrelevant, but what's the opinion of the Martin Committee "Martin Brasswind" company's offering?

https://www.martinbrasswind.com/


Since you (curiously) chose to quote my expression of amusement at Croquethed's witty offering (which alludes to a somewhat heated exchange in another thread on the Forum) as a lead-in to your question, I'll offer an answer:

[ ... ]

There may not be many people who can offer an opinion based on hands-on playing experience because, given the size of the company and the price they're asking, there may not be many horns sold or inventoried yet.


Oh! This explains everything, thank you. No wonder they didn't come up in this thread. If they have been moving slowly due to Covid, I can't wait to hear about the horns once they are available. I've been waiting to hear about the BAC Benge, too. I hope the company can be successful, as I like the aesthetics more than I like the current modern and heavy designs out there, and if I were to invest in a brand new horn, these look like candidates.
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Wavyv
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:42 pm    Post subject: OK Reply with quote

U asked for It

Bach on a Benge lately
Getzen a sharp looking Committee but I'm Holton off an a Eclipse
My best friend Besson , Conn'ed a four valve Stomvi


Merry Xmas - and to all a High C
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