• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Flugelhorn covered in oil when in case.


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
saurus
Regular Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2019
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've come up with a plan to test this out. I'd rather not keep the horn out of the case, with kids in the house there's no safe place lol....

I might be wrong but personally I don't think it is an excess oil issue, I oil it daily but only with a drop or two and I've been doing this forever on other horns without this happening. I also think any excess oil would flush out during playing. On the other hand it is possible that what is enough for one horn might be too much for another. With this horn being new I am not familiar with it and I am simply oiling it with the same amounts as the other horns.

I'll first stop oiling it for a few days but will wipe it dry and play it daily, I will keep track of whether the oil 'leak' gets smaller or stops completely. This will address the most logical source of oil.

If the wetting stops after a few days, it would be an excess oil issue, or simply this type of oil wicks out too easily. In that case I'll will try to change to a different oil - I had never used the Yamaha oil before, although I'm liking it.

If the wetting doesn't stop after a few days, I'll try wrapping the horn in something to confirm if the problem is the case.

One thing that I am suspecting is that this is not a specific issue of excess oil or wet case, but maybe the case lining is providing an efficient method for the oil to wick out easily out of the horn. In that case it's not a wet case issue or excess oil as such, just the combination.

We'll see how it goes, I'll keep you updated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mafields627
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 3774
Location: AL

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have a Shew flugel as well and have noticed that because of how close the tolerance is oil often ends up on the outside of the casing when I oil. I keep an extra rag to wipe the exterior of the casings off after oiling.
_________________
--Matt--

No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
etc-etc
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6158

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saurus wrote:
I've come up with a plan to test this out. I'd rather not keep the horn out of the case, with kids in the house there's no safe place lol....

I might be wrong but personally I don't think it is an excess oil issue, I oil it daily but only with a drop or two and I've been doing this forever on other horns without this happening. I also think any excess oil would flush out during playing. On the other hand it is possible that what is enough for one horn might be too much for another. With this horn being new I am not familiar with it and I am simply oiling it with the same amounts as the other horns.

I'll first stop oiling it for a few days but will wipe it dry and play it daily, I will keep track of whether the oil 'leak' gets smaller or stops completely. This will address the most logical source of oil.

If the wetting stops after a few days, it would be an excess oil issue, or simply this type of oil wicks out too easily. In that case I'll will try to change to a different oil - I had never used the Yamaha oil before, although I'm liking it.

If the wetting doesn't stop after a few days, I'll try wrapping the horn in something to confirm if the problem is the case.

One thing that I am suspecting is that this is not a specific issue of excess oil or wet case, but maybe the case lining is providing an efficient method for the oil to wick out easily out of the horn. In that case it's not a wet case issue or excess oil as such, just the combination.

We'll see how it goes, I'll keep you updated.


Place some Kleenex under the valve cluster overnight and see if it gets soaked in oil.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tpt_Guy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 1101
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saurus wrote:
Interesting, do you oil it every time you play?


Mostly. I don't play it every day, but with the amout of oil I have to wipe off I can't imagine there is much left, so I usually give each valve a drop or two. Sometimes the valves feel okay and I feel lazy so I skip it.
_________________
-Tom Hall-

"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saurus
Regular Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2019
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, here are my findings so far:

Day 0: oiled normally, played normally, wiped clean before putting in case.

Day 1: Horn was wet as usual, valve block, slides and part of bell. Wiped it dry, skipped oiling and played for an hour, valve action was normal. Horn was perfectly dry during playing, wiped it with a rag and stored in case.

Day 2: Horn was wet, maybe slightly less than the day before but still within the usual amounts. Wiped dry, skipped oiling and played for 2 hours, valve action was fine. Horn was perfectly dry during playing, wiped it with a rag and stored in case.

Day 3: The amount of oil over the horn was drastically less than the days before, still a very thin layer over the valve block (mostly just a damp feeling to touch, barely visible) but none on the bell. The valves where still smooth but I could feel a slight difference in their action (or it could just be my inner oiling self telling me so ). Opened the valves to check and they were not dry. I decided to add the tiniest drop of oil that I could to each valve. Wiped it dry and played it for less than an hour, again perfectly dry throughout.

Day 4: The amount of oil over the horn was the same as on day 3, just a damp feeling on the valve block area.

At this point I would say that definitely the oil is coming from the horn not from the case.

The usual amount of oil that I was seeing was probably excess oil, although based on my experience with oiling other horns it is unusual. On day 3 I put only a really tiny drop of oil and the amount of wetness stayed the same, so maybe that it is right amount of oil for this horn.

This weekend I'll clean the valves and try to use a different oil, want to see if that makes any difference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard III
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2611
Location: Anacortes, WA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it in the case on its side? Or in other words, which side is down when stored?
I just thought of this. I read somewhere that the euphonium should not be stored bell down as this puts the bottom of the valves towards the floor. Doing so causes the oils to leak out. My flugelhorn is stored that way but I've never noticed any leaking.
_________________
Richard

Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
saurus
Regular Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2019
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Is it in the case on its side? Or in other words, which side is down when stored?
I just thought of this. I read somewhere that the euphonium should not be stored bell down as this puts the bottom of the valves towards the floor. Doing so causes the oils to leak out. My flugelhorn is stored that way but I've never noticed any leaking.


Valves are oriented maybe 10 degrees down from horizontal (top side down) when in the case, with the case horizontal. I did try to store the case vertically, so the values are pointing up but it didn't seem to make a lot of difference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spitvalve
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 2149
Location: Little Elm, TX

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had a thread about a year and a half ago about the Gard 9-MSK triple bag. One poster commented that because the flugel has to be stored upside down in that case that his Getzen flugel would leak oil all over and ended up making a mess. I store my Getzen flugel upside down in my Gard bag and have had no issues with oil leaking out. I also don't have to oil my flugel very often, maybe every other or even third day.

I'm curious to find out the cause of the OP's oil leaks.
_________________
Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saurus
Regular Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2019
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last weekend I took the valves out and wiped both the valves and the internal valve casings dry of the Yamaha oil. (The valves, caps and casings were very clean, no gunk or anything).

I then applied T2 oil. Of course being the first oiling of dry valves I applied a fair amount. I have a lot of experience using the T2 oil, I could say it is my favorite oil but the Yamaha oil is also a good one - I don't want this thread to turn into a debate on which oil is better.

After oiling I went ahead with a playing session. The valve action was great, I would say I didn't feel much difference between the two oils, possibly T2 felt a bit smoother, but it's really slight and could also be a result of the cleanup.

After the session I wiped it clean (some excess oil did come off during playing - which is expected for a first oiling) and put it in the case as usual.

The next day, to my surprise the horn was perfectly dry! no oil leaked out, not even the slight damp feeling that I observed last week. I added a drop of oil to each valve to see if it would leak out. Played it again (no leak during paying) and stored it as usual.

Today, I checked the horn and again it was perfectly dry!

I think the Yamaha regular oil is probably thinner than the T2 so maybe that is causing it to wick out more easily in this particular horn. I might try the T3 but don't have any at the moment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard III
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2611
Location: Anacortes, WA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been curious about another possible problem. If you have a rubber ball that you can plug the bell, do that and blow hard into the horn. Do you see any oil on the valve casings after that? I was just wondering if there is a defect in the casings to valve slide tubing joints. Obviously this would be worse with thinner oil. I don't even know if this is a valid way of testing for the defect. I don't know if this defect ever even exists in horns. Just a thought.
_________________
Richard

Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
saurus
Regular Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2019
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
I've been curious about another possible problem. If you have a rubber ball that you can plug the bell, do that and blow hard into the horn. Do you see any oil on the valve casings after that? I was just wondering if there is a defect in the casings to valve slide tubing joints. Obviously this would be worse with thinner oil. I don't even know if this is a valid way of testing for the defect. I don't know if this defect ever even exists in horns. Just a thought.


My first thought when I saw the oil was some kind of defect or hole in the joints as you suggested and I inspected the horn as thoroughly as I could including all joints. I did try to create some compression to check for leaks as well although I'm not sure if my testing was good enough. I couldn't see any defect but I still haven't excluded that. My impression is that the oil was coming out of the top caps but again not sure about this as it was spreading allover the valve block as a thin uniform layer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8910
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saurus wrote:
I think the Yamaha regular oil is probably thinner than the T2 so maybe that is causing it to wick out more easily in this particular horn. I might try the T3 but don't have any at the moment.

My 731 doesn't work well with T2. Too slow. Sometimes I assume it's because the valves are too tight. I use T3 sometimes but often I prefer Blue Juice because it's reliably quicker.

Note in my experience with T2 and T3 I really never feel the need to add much.

FWIW, after some really positive reviews I tried the Yamaha oil and hated it.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group