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what taper does the Stauffer by Kanstul have??



 
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Tyro
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject: what taper does the Stauffer by Kanstul have?? Reply with quote

Can anyone confirm whether the Stauffer's use a small Morse taper?

I've received one w/ two mouthpieces - a small Morse and a large Morse. The Large appears to be a bit long in the lead pipe. But they're both in tune, and both pretty 'bright' - I suspect they're 'transition' mouthpieces for new Flugelhorn players.

Also if you can recommend any sites or other resources on the Stauffer Flugels, please do - I can't find anything, though it's actually a nicely made horn.
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Tyro
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is there a reliable way to deduce which taper is used from caliper measurements on the lead pipe?

I'm familiar w/ the small vs large Morse dimensions but they only differ by ~0.5 mm in their relevant outer dimensions and (IIRC) are otherwise the same for their taper ratios and engagement lengths - If I'm correct.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:58 am    Post subject: Re: what taper does the Stauffer by Kanstul have?? Reply with quote

Tyro wrote:
Can anyone confirm whether the Stauffer's use a small Morse taper?

I've received one w/ two mouthpieces - a small Morse and a large Morse. The Large appears to be a bit long in the lead pipe. But they're both in tune, and both pretty 'bright' - I suspect they're 'transition' mouthpieces for new Flugelhorn players.

Also if you can recommend any sites or other resources on the Stauffer Flugels, please do - I can't find anything, though it's actually a nicely made horn.


The problem is that I've never heard of Stauffer, so I can't reply with any specific knowledge. If you know when the horn was manufactured, it will narrow things down a bit. Also, if you know the bore of the horn, it will help deduce the shank. How?

Back in the 1980s, I think, Kanstul developed what became known as the 1525 and 925 flugelhorn models. The 1525 originally was spec'ed with a Large Morse tuning bit, but the receiver regularly failed because there was too little brass surrounding the mouthpiece and tuning bit tube. They changed the receiver to accept Small Morse shanks and that is how the 1525 was produced, thereafter. The 925 was spec'ed for a French taper.

My guess is that your horn would also be designed for Small Morse taper. Btw, does the mouthpiece receiver have the letter "B" stamped on it? If so, the "B" stands for "Bach taper," which is Small Morse.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Tyro
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the reply - I suspect it's a small morse as well.

The horn is pretty new, only 3 or 4 years old. I don't think that Kanstul had been offering them for too long.

But I'm not sure of their exact relationship with the Stauffer line - whether they were made entirely by Kanstul or if Kanstul perhaps imported and QA'd them as a distributor or something.

It's that question that motivates me to seek some confirmation on the taper. Because the Stauffers seem like they were intended for entry level players, and perhaps schools, and I've noticed that a lot of horns at that end of the market seem to go with large morse.

It looks like The Horn Guys in Pasadena had been selling them recently. I'll reach out to them after Easter and see if they can help on this question.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The “Stauffer” line of instruments is the house brand of The Horn Guys - “Stauffer” is Steve Ferguson’s mother’s maiden name, and they were all Kanstul stencils. Excellent horns at a great price.

While Steve had flugelhorns in stock, I noticed that the photo on his webpage didn’t match the description - I don’t remember if there was a photo that appeared to be basically a 1025 Kanstul with a description of the 925, or if it was the other way around. I emailed Steve about it, and he didn’t seem to be too clear about it himself, basically saying that Zig told him something or other when he ordered the horns.

If you can post a photo of the horn along with a close-up of the leadpipe we might be able to determine the leadpipe taper. If the horn is a stencil of the Kanstul 925 the leadpipe is most likely a French taper, and if it’s a 1025 stencil it’s likely to be a small morse taper.
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Tyro
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's very helpful LL, thank you.

Here are some pics ..

of the lead pipe - http://civintel.ch/img/Flugel/leadpipe.JPG
and a profile shot of the RH side - http://civintel.ch/img/Flugel/Profile.JPG

the valves are bottom sprung, if that helps.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyro wrote:
That's very helpful LL, thank you.

Here are some pics ..

of the lead pipe - http://civintel.ch/img/Flugel/leadpipe.JPG
and a profile shot of the RH side - http://civintel.ch/img/Flugel/Profile.JPG

the valves are bottom sprung, if that helps.

That is a stencil of Kanstul's 1025 flugelhorn. It's beautiful, isn't it?

I believe that your leadpipe has a small morse taper. I don't think any of Kanstul's flugelhorns shipped with a large morse taper after the first few 1525's that had large morse taper leadpipes that failed consistently (I think there were only 12 horns that shipped that way). You can be absolutely certain that it's a small morse taper if there is a "B" stamped on the leadpipe ferrule on the opposite side of the photograph - most small morse taper leadpipes had that stamp, as shofarguy mentioned.

Your flugelhorn is very close to a Kanstul 1025, with the few changes that Steve asked for when he ordered them, which were apparently a different style of third valve slide trigger, the lack of a first valve slide water key, and of course the bell stamp. It’s possible that there might be a few other differences in the bell taper or something like that, but I don’t think they amount to substantial differences. That horn is in my opinion one of the best flugelhorns made, and are sadly no longer available. You can read about the 1025 here:

https://www.kanstul.com/instruments/flugelhorns/model-1025-bb-flugelhorn/
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Tyro
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks again LL - that description helps to answer other questions I've had, as to why the horn sounds and plays much better than you might expect, given the price point I'd seen these were sold at.

Were these actually made by Kanstul? - what is the extent of a 'stencil' of a horn?

And it is a very pretty horn
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyro wrote:
thanks again LL - that description helps to answer other questions I've had, as to why the horn sounds and plays much better than you might expect, given the price point I'd seen these were sold at.

Were these actually made by Kanstul? - what is the extent of a 'stencil' of a horn?

And it is a very pretty horn

The term "stencil" applies to instruments that are ordered from a manufacturer to be sold as a private label merchandize for a store’s exclusive sales. In this case, The Horn Guys ordered instruments from Kanstul, and the name "Stauffer" was stamped on the bells. A big part of Kanstul’s business was to make horns for other brands to sell as their own, and Zig Kanstul got the initial funding for his factory after he got a contract to manufacture F. Besson instruments for Boosey & Hawkes in 1983. These instruments were manufactured entirely by Kanstul to the specifications of the client. In addition to F. Besson and Stauffer, Kanstul manufactured horns for Flip Oakes, Jerry Callet, Zeus, Cannonball, and Tama, just off the top of my head, as well as parts for makers like Bach.

Typically someone like Flip Oakes would ask Zig to make horns to his own specifications, as long as it fit within the parameters of what Zig could produce. For example, Flip had a "Wild Thing" flugelhorn that was very similar to your flugelhorn in that it was based on Zig’s 1025 flugelhorn, with the exceptions of the water keys that Flip wanted, a french taper leadpipe, a metal guard on the bell branch, and a bigger copper bell that Flip said was more like the original F. Besson flugelhorn bell. Zig would also make slight changes to the bracing of the horn to differentiate it from his own 1025 model. Kanstul didn’t change their manufacturing practices when making stencils, so all the horns that came out of Kanstul had the same quality whether they were badged Kanstul or not. In the case of Stauffer, I believe that Steve had Zig make his flugelhorns without a first valve water key and a less expensive third valve trigger for a less costly horn, and then he sold them exclusively in his shop for a very low margin to get people into the store and possibly buy some other things. The Stauffer flugelhorn is the same high quality as Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" flugelhorn with a few less accoutrements (and without the detailing and valve alignment that Flip did himself).

Your Stauffer flugelhorn is an excellent horn, and you got it at an excellent price. Congratulations.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liberty Lips wrote:
Tyro wrote:
thanks again LL - that description helps to answer other questions I've had, as to why the horn sounds and plays much better than you might expect, given the price point I'd seen these were sold at.

Were these actually made by Kanstul? - what is the extent of a 'stencil' of a horn?

And it is a very pretty horn

The term "stencil" applies to instruments that are ordered from a manufacturer to be sold as a private label merchandize for a store’s exclusive sales. In this case, The Horn Guys ordered instruments from Kanstul, and the name "Stauffer" was stamped on the bells. A big part of Kanstul’s business was to make horns for other brands to sell as their own, and Zig Kanstul got the initial funding for his factory after he got a contract to manufacture F. Besson instruments for Boosey & Hawkes in 1983. These instruments were manufactured entirely by Kanstul to the specifications of the client. In addition to F. Besson and Stauffer, Kanstul manufactured horns for Flip Oakes, Jerry Callet, Zeus, Cannonball, and Tama, just off the top of my head, as well as parts for makers like Bach.

Typically someone like Flip Oakes would ask Zig to make horns to his own specifications, as long as it fit within the parameters of what Zig could produce. For example, Flip had a "Wild Thing" flugelhorn that was very similar to your flugelhorn in that it was based on Zig’s 1025 flugelhorn, with the exceptions of the water keys that Flip wanted, a french taper leadpipe, a metal guard on the bell branch, and a bigger copper bell that Flip said was more like the original F. Besson flugelhorn bell. Zig would also make slight changes to the bracing of the horn to differentiate it from his own 1025 model. Kanstul didn’t change their manufacturing practices when making stencils, so all the horns that came out of Kanstul had the same quality whether they were badged Kanstul or not. In the case of Stauffer, I believe that Steve had Zig make his flugelhorns without a first valve water key and a less expensive third valve trigger for a less costly horn, and then he sold them exclusively in his shop for a very low margin to get people into the store and possibly buy some other things. The Stauffer flugelhorn is the same high quality as Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" flugelhorn with a few less accoutrements (and without the detailing and valve alignment that Flip did himself).

Your Stauffer flugelhorn is an excellent horn, and you got it at an excellent price. Congratulations.


The statement about the Wild Thing flugelhorn is not correct. It is different compared to the 1025 in other significant ways than those stated and it plays quite differently, as well. I've not only owned both models, but I also converted my 1025 to French taper before trading it for a WT.

According to Troy, who was the shop foreman at Kanstul, the bell and bell branch of each of these two models are made on the same mandrels. However, the bell bends are not the same. The 1025 has a double-radius bell bend that tightens up at the bottom. You can see this in photos, if you look at where the bell branch crosses the 3rd valve slide. It's higher on the 1025. The Wild Thing uses the same bend as the 925. This means that the bell branch on the Wild Thing also has a larger radius bend, in order to match up with the bell tale.

How does this affect how the horn plays? I can tell you that the switch to French taper from Small Morse made the biggest change to my 1025, but the difference in bell bend meant that the 1025 had a noticeable and abrupt upturn in impedance above the staff at about A. Correspondingly, there was more resistance up there and the tone turned more trumpet-like. I've read that this is preferred in traditional Continental Europe.

The Wild Thing has no upturn step and no sudden change in resistance or tone quality, as one ascends over the staff. Its response is linear. This is more suited to American Jazz.

The 1025 was simply a model once developed for the Besson line and slightly changed for Kanstul's Chicago collection, as was the 1070 trumpet. The Wild Thing is a unique design developed by Flip Oakes for his own line of instruments.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
How does this affect how the horn plays? I can tell you that the switch to French taper from Small Morse made the biggest change to my 1025, but the difference in bell bend meant that the 1025 had a noticeable and abrupt upturn in impedance above the staff at about A.

An upturn in impedance? Wow! Where did you plug it in?
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