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Black Yamaha mouthpiece - what is it?



 
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Trumpeter_EST
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Joined: 03 Aug 2020
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Location: Estonia, Tallinn

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:31 am    Post subject: Black Yamaha mouthpiece - what is it? Reply with quote

Hi fellow trumpeters,

So recently a friend of mine got some mouthpieces to try and he let me try some myself. I tried a Yamaha 15E4 and the mouthpiece sounds great. However, I have never seen or heard of a piece with a black finish such as this. Also haven’t found anything on the internet. Anyone have any information on it?
Pictures:
https://ibb.co/Sdz0YDN
https://ibb.co/23Y4MZ2
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a.kemp
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know who/what was done to this piece.

But, it exists.... Diamondbrass.com
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Claude1949
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a.kemp wrote:
I don’t know who/what was done to this piece.

But, it exists.... Diamondbrass.com


To me, it looks like a heavily TARNISHED mouthpiece.......
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giakara
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claude1949 wrote:
a.kemp wrote:
I don’t know who/what was done to this piece.

But, it exists.... Diamondbrass.com


To me, it looks like a heavily TARNISHED mouthpiece.......



Exactly

Regards
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a.kemp
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinda looks like matte black spray paint
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wiemelen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one looks like tarnished to me, considering the back colour is not even present all around.
Or maybe heating was used to blacken it up?

I also want to make my own mouthpieces look a bit tarnished/patina look.
The bright shiny silver tend to stand out against dark patina of my unlacquered trumpet.
So recently I discovered something called "cold blue" or "gun blue".
Usually applied to knives, guns or other things. But since I have too much spare time nowadays,
I'm thinking of applying it to a few of my old mouthpieces before using it on my main mouthpieces.
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Trumpet : Yamaha YTR-6335H with Lotus 2L + Lotus 2M + GR L66,9B
Flugelhorn : Kanstul 1525 with Curry 1,5FL + B&S Thierry Caens signature model
Cornet : Conn 80a (1919) with Curry 1,5 BBC + Curry 1,5 VC + GR L66,9 #6
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bluing as applied to finish on guns or knives is a process that involves chemical "oxidation" (not actually combining oxygen, but a change of state of the base elements) of iron in the steel. Chemicals used in the process are not really what you want in your mouth. It is not just a color added to the surface, but a chemical attack on the surface metal.

Aside from the inadvisability of oral contact with prussic acid, it would ruin the finish and base metal of your mouthpiece. Not a good idea. And yes, I am a chemical engineer and certified firearm safety instructor.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
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Ancientram
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:03 am    Post subject: Black Yamaha MP Reply with quote

Just me talkin', and I've seen plenty of mouthpieces with really heavy tarnish, but this looks like paint to me. Could a previous owner have sprayed it black to match a black trumpet???
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a baked on finish? Duracoat, etc.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
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delano
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want one, just buy a new 15E4, it's only $42 at Mouthpiece Express.
BTW that mp has quite a deep cup, a 24 throat and the Yamaha wide backbore, it is designed for rotary trumpets. On a piston trumpet it can be done but it's a little bit hard working especially high up, (I own a 14E4 but I don't play it).
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wiemelen
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@huntman10 : thanks for the information about blueing.
I was only planning to put it on the shank, not cup or rim.
However, seems like blueing the shank is also not a good idea .
So back to looking for another solution to "age" the mouthpiece.
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Trumpet : Yamaha YTR-6335H with Lotus 2L + Lotus 2M + GR L66,9B
Flugelhorn : Kanstul 1525 with Curry 1,5FL + B&S Thierry Caens signature model
Cornet : Conn 80a (1919) with Curry 1,5 BBC + Curry 1,5 VC + GR L66,9 #6
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To my eyes, it looks like a coating that is flaking off in some areas, not tarnish.
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alan_o
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Joined: 08 Apr 2021
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiemelen wrote:
So back to looking for another solution to "age" the mouthpiece.


Years ago I had a habit of rinsing my mouthpiece out in the tap water after I played. After a while (and probably only a couple months), I noticed that it was tarnishing into a color between dark blue and black. It was likely close to the effect you're looking for.

This was on city water and I assumed it was the chlorine in the water that was causing it to tarnish.

Maybe try similar.
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trompette229
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say this definitely is not tarnish. It's flaking off. I agree with those that say it's likely been painted.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, silver is darkened by chlorine, and potable water is chlorinated. The darkening is a result of the silver reacting with chlorine to produce silver chloride. As you polish the silver chloride, you are removing silver from your mouthpiece.

I had a friend who got the idea to clean his silver Strad with a chlorine based disinfectant. It came out very black, which he thought was cool. But the finish felt sort of tacky feeling, and over time, got pretty patchy looking, so he polished it off with a soft cloth. It was obvious that he did lose some of his finish.

I would be very concerned that the silver chloride is much more soluble than plain silver, and using a mouthpiece with a heavy deposit of silver chloride (Ag Cl) might accumulate in lip tissues.

Basically, I would warn that any modification of a mouthpiece that involved making an actual chemical change to the metal is ill advised. If you must get a color change, get a quality machined polycarbonate piece, or find a safe coating such as Cerakote, which is baked on, and should stay chemically inert.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
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alan_o
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

huntman10 wrote:
FYI, silver is darkened by chlorine, and potable water is chlorinated. The darkening is a result of the silver reacting with chlorine to produce silver chloride.


Interesting. So this is not the normal "tarnish" that we see in silver, which comes from Sulfur and not Oxygen.

Here's an interesting thing I found about the chemistry of silver tarnish and an interesting way to remove it:
http://blog.teachersource.com/2014/01/18/chemistry-of-tarnished-silver/

What's not clear to me is if the resulting Ag atoms are bonded to where the AG2S molecules were or whether they are left floating in the water and lost.

A bit off the original topic but related and interesting.

Quote:
I would be very concerned that the silver chloride is much more soluble than plain silver, and using a mouthpiece with a heavy deposit of silver chloride (Ag Cl) might accumulate in lip tissues.

Basically, I would warn that any modification of a mouthpiece that involved making an actual chemical change to the metal is ill advised.

Wise.
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:30 pm    Post subject: black yamaha mouthpiece.....what is it? Reply with quote

There is a process called nitride bathing that could darken the surface of metal like that mouthpiece. It goes deeper than the surface, though, and my understanding is that it also hardens the surface of whatever metal you are bathing just a little.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nitriding is a surface hardening process primarily used for ferrous metals, but also applicable to certain alloys such as some aluminum and titanium alloys. The process is chemically similar to a blacksmith heating up a piece of metal, hammering into shape while keeping it red hot, and quenching it in an oil, which besides cooling the metal suddenly to set the .microscopic grain structure, forces carbon atoms into those grains near the surface. Those grains of ferric carbide are actually now a hard and brittle ceramic in a matrix of softer, more flexible iron. This creates a hard rigid tool that will stay sharp, but not break easily. Nitriding creates ferric nitride grains.

Mouthpieces are almost always silverplated brass. The silver plate is not an alloy, Nd does not have a grain structure that will harden. We think of brass as an alloy since it is 2 metals,zinc and copper mixed. But to a metallurgist, brass is not and alloy but a solid solution. Alloys form specific mixtures due to the specific packing of the atoms, and the specific grain structures form the grain structures that are needed for this type of surface hardening. Since the copper and zinc form a completely miscible matrix, I am pretty sure brass is not likely to nitride harden. I guess you could find someone to build you a steel 16A4a......
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
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