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No Endurance During Lip Slurs


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OrangeDreamsicle
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:43 am    Post subject: No Endurance During Lip Slurs Reply with quote

I practice about an hour and a half twice a day, and around the middle of my practices I've been doing flexibilities and lip slurs out of the Schlossberg and Irons books. I find that by the end of the 15 minutes I dedicate to them, my lips are usually very tired and I can't play for long at all before needing a break.
Are lip flexibilities naturally a strenuous exercise that can't be performed for too long without a break or am I approaching them incorrectly?
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falado
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I do Irons, Colin, and Smith flexibility daily and as my warm up. Do you rest between each individual exercise? I do a half hour or more of these each day and don’t tire because I rest for at least as long, or longer, that I played each individual exercise. Also, are you using the air in conjunction with your tongue? Read the introduction to Charles Colin Lip Flexibility book and Brass Playing is No Harder Than Deep Breathing, and check Jeff Purtle’s website on this subject.
Just some thoughts,

Dave
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes they can be tiring, because they are a type of physical exercise for the embouchure muscles. Especially if done slowly with 'long tones'.

And they are beneficial because they increase muscle strength and endurance, and also increase muscle precision when you strive for steady pitch and loudness.

Do some 'horse noises' and 'cheek puffing' between exercises to help blood flow.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are lip flexibilities naturally a strenuous exercise that can't be performed for too long without a break or am I approaching them incorrectly?


They can cause fatigue depending on how much effort is required for you to execute these plus how long you execute the exercise. But generally yes, they are more of a callisthenic exercise.

Personally doing these following things in regard to lip slurs improved my approach:

1. Do not use lip slurs as part of the warmup. (other than low, short duration, soft ones, sparingly, and late in the warmup once clear tone and clean attacks have been established)
2. Perform them at the end of your practice if part of your approach.
3. They are not required to be done daily. If you do over-fatigue from any calisthenics. Take a recovery period on one or more following days.

Remember that the tongue position does not directly influence pitch. It simply is a barometer of your lip effort, which DOES increase for higher pitches.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello
yes at one stage of one's development, 15mn of flex can tire.
The rule is to have a break when the quality of the execution starts to decrease
best
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: No Endurance During Lip Slurs Reply with quote

OrangeDreamsicle wrote:
I practice about an hour and a half twice a day, and around the middle of my practices I've been doing flexibilities and lip slurs out of the Schlossberg and Irons books. I find that by the end of the 15 minutes I dedicate to them, my lips are usually very tired and I can't play for long at all before needing a break.
Are lip flexibilities naturally a strenuous exercise that can't be performed for too long without a break or am I approaching them incorrectly?


You're doing them incorrectly.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep air flowing and use syllables. From low to high: say Hawaii
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There’s a new book soon to be released that mentions this problem and how to overcome it. Some people don’t fully experience the benefits and importance of flexibility studies for a number of reasons.

Make sure you kick the air on ascending notes and think Eee to feel the coordination of tongue level and wind power that will allow you to get a free open sound and the feeling of the air doing the work more than your lip.

“The air does the work. The tongue channels the pitch.” - Claude Gordon

Also, don’t underestimate the value of doing exercises that are maybe more suited to your range and abilities at the time. Often people practice things too advanced and don’t spend enough time letting the exercises transforming their playing.

Jeff
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
feeling of the air doing the work more than your lip.


Lip function can not be replaced by air pressure. An efficient tone production setup will require less air pressure, not more.

Air pressure provides the energy for the sound. The lip embouchure determines the frequency of the tone AND the quality of tone.

There is a reason that for most players the tongue moves as they increase the lip muscular effort. This movement is comfortable and even necessary for the most efficient embouchure manipulation depending on the embouchure style. But the tongue has no direct causative effect on pitch.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But the tongue has no direct causative effect on pitch.


For you. For me it does.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My teacher always put lip slurs (Irons) at the very end of my routine.

And as others have said, these are bound to be taxing. Rest a lot. But also don't turn each one into a range extension exercise. The focus should not be throwing everything you got into each one but refine the small movements that make it happen. And if it hasn't been said, resist playing them loud. The guys I've seen who have really mastered doing these can do them at a whisper.
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JH3136
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
My teacher always put lip slurs (Irons) at the very end of my routine.

And as others have said, these are bound to be taxing. Rest a lot. But also don't turn each one into a range extension exercise. The focus should not be throwing everything you got into each one but refine the small movements that make it happen. And if it hasn't been said, resist playing them loud. The guys I've seen who have really mastered doing these can do them at a whisper.


+1. Conceptually, the James Stamp "think up going down/down going up" concept keeps things fairly centered and the motions limited which helps with both flexibility and endurance. The more centered we keep things, the easier flexibility becomes. One of my college teachers had me play quiet half-step bends starting on middle G or C before playing lip slur exercises. For me, that helps keep things in place fairly well.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
... But the tongue has no direct causative effect on pitch.

Richard III wrote:

For you. For me it does.

----------------------------------------------------------
I think this is becoming a discussion of what is 'direct cause' , 'indirect cause', 'resulting effect', 'causative effect', etc.

It seems that most players do accept the notion that tongue position and how it is manipulated does play some part in overall embouchure adjustment.
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Bethmike
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:13 am    Post subject: No Endurance During Lip Slurs Reply with quote

I used to have poor endurance doing my Irons lip slurs. I was using too much lip manipulation and mouthpiece pressure and not enough air control / effort.

I stopped thinking of them as "lip" slurs.

I now think of them as "slurs that I make happen without moving my valves but by managing and moving my air".

Just a silly trick I use. It is not literal, it is a mental trick for myself. But I can now do 30 minutes of Irons with appropriate rests and feel fine at the end.

As always YMMV.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: No Endurance During Lip Slurs Reply with quote

Bethmike wrote:
... I was using too much lip manipulation and mouthpiece pressure and not enough air control / effort.
...
I now think of them as "slurs that I make happen without moving my valves but by managing and moving my air". ...

-----------------------------------------------
Can you expand on your physical actions and feelings that are involved with your 'air control / effort' and 'by managing and moving my air'?

Examples might be things such as changing the resistance to air flow, a feeling of changed air speed, adjusting mouthpiece pressure to enable air control, making quick air speed / air pressure changes to accomplish the slur.
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Avan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quoteAlso, don’t underestimate the value of doing exercises that are maybe more suited to your range and abilities at the time. Often people practice things too advanced and don’t spend enough time letting the exercises transforming their playing.[/quote]


Great Statement!

I found that out the hard way on my journey.
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Bethmike
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject: Endurance lip slurs Reply with quote

Hi Jay,

Thanks for asking! Sorry this is long, I am usually a 2 sentence guy.

First, to put some context to my thinking while practicing Irons, a flaw of mine that I work to correct is backing off on my air support as I go up. I am probably not unique, since Claude Gordon recommended “Blow stronger as you go up” and “Blow stronger on top notes” in his Systematic Approach.

Both my teacher, John Mohan, and Jeff Purtle (comments above) follow CG’s methodology, and it is working well for me.

“The air does the work. The tongue channels the pitch.” - Claude Gordon

I know some TH’s disagree on the role of the tongue.

So I exaggerate (a little) my technique on Irons. I try to minimize the movement of muscles in my face. I think of “channeling the air” to the inside of my lips. This video of Scott Englebright was eye opening. And, of course, amazing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWywZ0SzuaA

I just did my Irons this evening, and tried to be especially conscious of what I was doing so I could respond. I set my embouchure, and as I go up:
• I blow harder
• Move the front portion of my tongue up and forward to channel the air
• Firm my embouchure somewhat
• Add a little mpc pressure.

Other notes:
• Controlling the opposite motion on the way down is important.
• I prefer ~60-ish% of mpc pressure on my bottom lip.

I will periodically “pop” a burst of air (small but fast) on the top of exercises to see how it is possible to go up more relatively easily. (Okay, we all like a high note.)

I get huge results from Irons Groups 7 & 8. FWIW in the book Earl Irons states Groups 6, 7, & 8 as his favorites.

This evening, since I was planning to post this, I did Irons 4. 5. 6. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18. It took 45 minutes. Good work out. Rested an hour, then did some Clarke’s. Solid evening.

Hope I described this well, we all use different words to describe similar things.

Mike
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Endurance lip slurs Reply with quote

Bethmike wrote:
... Hope I described this well, we all use different words to describe similar things.

Mike

-------------------------------------------
Thanks for your description.
I agree that 'we all use different words to describe similar things'.
My 'theory' / 'hypothesis' is that the same basic physical/physiological things are done by players regardless of whether they subscribe to 'lip control' or 'air control'. Ya can't have one without the other.
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Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This method book explains quite a bit of formulative technique.
http://charlescolin.com/product/margulis-maintenance-method-for-trumpet/
If you don't know of the player, look him up.
There are some exercises the give you the "corner burn" which strengthens muscles. You must be smart enough to know when to stop!
This book does help.
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