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Tongue anchor for upper range



 
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HBD
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject: Tongue anchor for upper range Reply with quote

Jens Linderman recommends anchoring the tongue on the bottom teeth for playing above the staff, rather than letting tongue float. I have trouble doing anchoring the tongue in that way. Mine naturally floats. Any suggestions?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not familiar with Linderman's suggestion - can you provide a link (or whatever) that you are using as the basis for it (including timestamp if appropriate).
I'd like to review it because the term 'anchoring' seems to be used and understood in several different ways.

Also tongue position and use is probably very specific to a person's anatomy, nerve response, and muscle control.

You've entered this question in the Claude Gordon section, and it is usually reserved for discussion specifically about Gordon's methods and teaching. You would likely get a wider range of responses if the question was in the FUNDAMENTALS or HIGH RANGE DEVELOPMENT section.
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sdr93trp
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For "anchor tonguing" or k-tongue modified as Clarke called it, you keep the tip of the tongue behind the bottom teeth. For some, it's a little higher, and for others, a little lower depending on the size of your tongue and shape of your mouth. The point is not to keep it rigidly locked there but to keep it in that vicinity so that tongue arch for slurs and upper register playing works correctly. You'll single tongue using a point slightly back from the tip of the tongue against the roof of your mouth or the back of your top teeth. It'll take about two weeks to a month (for most) to get used to it and find their "spot" so to speak.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love LOVE the "impulse" and control that I get by tonguing where I naturally use tongue for language, such as for T or D. The tip and just behind it stopping the air pressure by contacting the gum line just above the teeth.

For me, the KTM or "anchored" approach gives uninspired and weaker note beginnings in comparison, there are reasons why, with little variance in attack style and colors. I don't recommend trying to hold your tongue in an unnatural position if it feels that way to attempt to "anchor".
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tip of the tongue should be placed lightly behind the bottom teeth. Like it states in Claude's Tongue Level Exercises or Brass Playing is No Harder Than Deep Breathing, the tongue should not be held rigidly behand the teeth. That is the way John Mohan taught me to KTM (K tongue modified) or Claude's/HL Clarke's method of tonguing.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jens advocates "anchoring" the front tip of the tongue to the area of the backs of the front bottom teeth - in other words, he advocates exactly what Claude advocates, except Claude did not like the word "anchor" as the tongue should never be held rigidly and to suggest "anchoring" it does give that impression.

I am sure Jens does not mean one should not arch their tongue. I recall hearing him talk about tongue arch in the past

Note that in the lower and middle registers, while the tip of the tongue will come into contact with the backs of the front bottom teeth during the articulation (while the front-middle portion of the tongue creates the actual articulation against the gum line just behind the front top teeth), for most players the tongue tip does not stay pressed against the backs of those front bottom teeth while sustaining or slurring notes.

Personally, my tongue tip does not maintain contact with the backs of my front bottom teeth until I get into the range above High C, then as my tongue arch becomes more up-and-forward, contact is maintained between the tongue tip and the backs of the front bottom teeth as the rest of my tongue arches up and forward.

For me, and I suspect for most, my tongue ends up in the same position when playing very high notes that it is in when whistling very high notes, or when "sissing" like a snake.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Last edited by John Mohan on Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
I love LOVE the "impulse" and control that I get by tonguing where I naturally use tongue for language, such as for T or D. The tip and just behind it stopping the air pressure by contacting the gum line just above the teeth.

For me, the KTM or "anchored" approach gives uninspired and weaker note beginnings in comparison, there are reasons why, with little variance in attack style and colors. I don't recommend trying to hold your tongue in an unnatural position if it feels that way to attempt to "anchor".


Do you make a habit of going into the other dedicated forums on the TH and disagreeing with the main tenets of what the teachers those dedicated forums are dedicated to, taught?

Do you go into the Callet forum and argue that what is taught there (TCE and/or SuperChops) is meritless? I tried that once twenty years ago and it did not end well. Yet you and others do that all the time in this CG Forum. I guess that's what happens when I dedicated forum doesn't have a dedicated Forum Moderator.

It's ironic that you imply there is something "unnatural" about the position of the tongue when tonguing using KTM (aka "Dorsal Tonguing"). I don't think most people keep tip of their tongue up in the area of the back of the top teeth. And I don't think many, if any players keep their tongue tip up there while sustaining or slurring notes. Whether walking down the street or slurring or sustaining notes on a brass instrument, I think most if not all people have their tongue tips resting in the area just behind their bottom front teeth.

It's true we are taught to say "tea" using our tongue tip against the backs of the top front teeth or perhaps the gum line just behind the top teeth. and when speaking this does sound cleaner. But speaking and articulating on a trumpet are two entirely different things. When we speak, the vibration occurs before the tongue. When we play a brass instrument, the vibration occurs after the tongue. And though you Darryl (kalijah) aren't willing to understand it, tongue arch (along with increased air pressure from the blowing muscles) is causal in the creation of the upper register (in particular above High C). Anything that is in the way of that airstream, even briefly during the articulation, can cause trouble in the upper register where the tolerances are so close.

And in all registers, tonguing the way the Greats played and taught minimizes the amount of tongue movement needed for articulations and keeps the tongue tip out of the way of the air stream, making for cleaner articulations (once one learns how to tongue this way and lets it develop - it does take time to undo old habits).

Once one learns to tongue the way most if not all of the great players tongue (articulating with the front middle portion of the tongue while keeping the tongue tip out of the way of the airstream in the manner Claude called K-tongue Modified (KTM) and others have called Dorsal or Anchor tonguing), the upper register, and in particular, tonguing in the upper register becomes much easier and more consistent and accurate. I hope you someday experience this. I doubt you will.

Those that are unwilling to learn are no better off than those you cannot learn.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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KendallK
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

I was thinking the same thing regarding kalijah and his propensity to jump into dedicated forums and play contrarian....

As far as the language bit... I recall reading once that people who speak French pronounce "tu" with a KTM/Dorsal/Anchor tongue position. Whenever I go full Gemini and let the french personality come out, my tongue almost always falls into the KTM position.... It has always been a really easy way to get the general concept to my new trumpet students.
(Also, it allows me to be a goof and speak with a ridiculous french accent...)

Speaking from personal experience, KTM and the tongue levels were two of the most important concepts that brought me back from the ashes of an injury I suffered while playing with an embouchure that used a lot of pressure to make it work.

(Props to Jeff Purtle for helping me get there)

Playing is much more effortless than it used to be... which is the ultimate goal, right?

-Kendall
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Kendall! Good to see you around.

Jens definitely has talked about both tongue level and KTM in his own words. One of my Brazilian students just told me about Sergei Nakariakov talking about vowels (aka tongue level). I posted a link on my site that should start where Sergei briefly mentions it. I have been trying to collect and post more things like that on my new site.

https://www.purtle.com/sergei-nakariakov-vowels-tongue-level

There's also another exciting new book from my English student, David Bertie, that will address some of this in a unique way with a cool forward by Chris Gekker. I wrote the preface but all of us have shared ideas and talked and our conversations have been very interesting.

Be on the look-out for that maybe this June 2021.

Claude's point was that all great players play the same even if they don't understand or communicate it. People, especially in our modern culture, recoil at the notion there are absolute universal truths in anything. KTM and tongue level are the way it works and anyone that has experience knows the freedom gained. But, as with anything it's easy to keep doing what you have done for years and dig your heals in and be stubborn to change.

One of my favorite quote of Clarke is in the opening text of Setting Up Drills (page 4) where he says, "Try to derive common sense of everything and use your brains in thinking over suggestions. Try to get away from tradition and superstition, which has ruined so many players." There is lots of wisdom found in the actual text in all the great books. Trumpet players often lack wisdom in lots of area. I am just as guilty as anyone.

Jeff
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff_Purtle wrote:
...
Claude's point was that all great players play the same even if they don't understand or communicate it. People, especially in our modern culture, recoil at the notion there are absolute universal truths in anything.
...
One of my favorite quote of Clarke is in the opening text of Setting Up Drills (page 4) where he says, "Try to derive common sense of everything and use your brains in thinking over suggestions. ...

---------------------------------------------
This is very important to understand!

Even though there are many small differences in how players and teachers DO and EXPLAIN things, it is more useful to learn the basic principles that are present among all of them.

Watch / listen / read and recognize those universal basics. Those are usually the things that need to be incorporated, practiced, and improved.

Yes, there might be individual tricks or styles that could help you, but those are usually AFTER having solid basics.

The value of a 'good teacher' is giving individual assistance and guidance to learn those basics.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.


Last edited by JayKosta on Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things I usually do at an ITG lecture or anything is ask the clinician if they have a practice routine and what it is. That often tells me much more than asking what they think about the tongue or KTM or some other thing. Questions about horns and mouthpieces I think are kind of trivial. I'm of course curious to know what they might use but I want to know how people practice.

I'm also curious to hear biographical stuff about overcoming challenges of any sort because absolutely nobody that is a great player has just picked-up the trumpet and not had some obstacle. There are some that make it seem that way but in reality they had to do something to get where they are. That's the kind of stuff we can all learn from anyone.

I think Claude's explanation provides the best framework to understand any great player. Someone might say their tongue doesn't move and other things and then when they start describing their practice routine you hear them talk about flexibility studies or intervals that are in fact tongue level exercises. They don't know it but it would be kind of stupid to try and argue with some great player. People will not change their mind unless they are open to it.

The Clarke biography is such a great example of how he investigated things and thought through things. That's been on my site for years and was recently improved with better navigation through the chapters.. It's worth a read. Claude didn't invent this stuff but merely systematized it better and explained more about the process of learning it all.

https://www.purtle.com/how-i-became-cornetist-herbert-l-clarke

Jeff
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