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Embouchure Change Questions


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throckmorton42
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Joined: 31 Mar 2021
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:09 pm    Post subject: Embouchure Change Questions Reply with quote

hi y'all! so I just started an embouchure change with a new teacher almost 2 months ago. I've been playing with a weird embouchure (off to the side & upper lip sticks a little out of the mouthpiece) for 8 years; it worked pretty well when it could work (got me into Tanglewood, Brevard, Interlochen, etc.) but I noticed I was making a lot less progress and my playing was a lot more inconsistent. People kept telling me to change it since like 7th grade, so I'm finally doing it now that I'm finally done with all my auditions and performances (temporarily forgetting my virtual band and orchestra obligations for now lmao)

The problem is, I'm almost 2 months in and I'm as inconsistent on this new embouchure as I am on the old. Some days it feels like I'm progressing, but others not so much. I have no idea if this new embouchure will work for me because I do have a "weirder" oral structure, and I'm at the point where neither embouchure works well enough. I was wondering if anyone here could share their experiences with embouchure changes. I'm just feeling very ambivalent about the change right now and wondering if it will be worth it in the long run. Thanks so much!
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Chcknwng
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After my sophomore year in HS, I went to summer band camp and made the top band for the second year in a row. I took lessons from one of my future college band directors. I, too was playing about one tooth to the left and low on the top lip. He advised me to move back to center and gave me a sketchy description of Carmine Caruso's method. My Jr year was horrible, but I recovered and made it through college as a music major. Fast forward to 2001, when I found BE. It gave me range and confidence I never had before. I'm only recently back on this forum, but I recommend you get Jeff's book, read EVERY post here, practice as much as you can without hurting yourself, and ask questions. Everyone here believes in the BE method and is willing to help. Good luck! Billy
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gtromble
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you pick the new teacher because of their expertise in working through a major change like this? If they know what they're doing, they will know if the progress you're making and the ups and downs you're having is on track. Have you talked with them about it (what you're bringing up here)?

My own experience has been that I cause my problems by trying to push faster and farther than I am really capable of. It might help you to focus for a while on the things that are working best, and make them even better. When that's super solid and you can count on them every day, start to venture out.
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my 10th grade year of high school, I underwent an embouchure change as a result of a similar cause. I moved from off center and low (upper lip in the red) to in the middle 50/50 upper/lower placement. In my case I had to effectively learn to play all over again. It took the majority of the school year to make the change. It payed off and I played much better than before.

Questions you may want to pose to yourself: Did I always play in that manner before I initiated the change? If not, what caused my embouchure to gravitate to that condition? What am I going to do differently so that I correct the condition that caused the issue in the first place?

I hope it works out for you.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since there was no mention of BE by the OP, I requested that this thread be moved from the BE forum to Fundamentals.

Embouchure changes are different for different players. Getting good specific advice here without a LOT more information is a crap shoot.

Jeff
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gwood66 wrote:
... what caused my embouchure to gravitate to that condition? What am I going to do differently so that I correct the condition that caused the issue in the first place? ...

----------------------------------
That is a very good question - and a related question is whether a 'better mouthpiece placement' can be established without correcting the initial 'cause'.

OP -
Have you or any of your teachers explained or described what specifically is 'not working'. Is the purpose of the change to resolve some identifiable 'mechanical problem'.

It might be that there isn't a specific item, and that the strategy of the change is - let's start from scratch and build up from a good foundation. That CAN work as long as the new foundation really is good for your lips / teeth / jaw / etc.

Are you able to feel and describe what was not working earlier, and how things have changed? Are your teachers interested?
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Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The problem is, I'm almost 2 months in and I'm as inconsistent on this new embouchure as I am on the old.


Two months isn't a lot of time to address a daily habit 8 years in the making. What does your teacher think about the progress you are making with the change? It seems to me that if you are already seeing signs of progress accept the inconsistencies and keep moving forward with the change. The inconsistencies you are experiencing should get fewer and further apart as you progress with the change. Good luck!
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made I pretty substantial change in college. It gave me a career.

1. The old way caused a great deal of pain once I started putting in regular daylong work on the horn. If I took a day off, things healed up too much and it was hard to play as well. There was no future in the approach. Had I not made the change, I would be doing something else for a living today. I was so far down the dead end that a fresh start was needed.

2. I made the change over the summer, but did prep work during the spring by practicing drills on the new placement.

3. I knew that the new way was going to be better right away, but it was really bad to start. To start, I could only play a few notes around second line G. The sound was small, but there was a focus to it on that I could never previously get.

4. It took over a year to return to my previous level. I returned to the school in the fall barely able to play. My teacher was very patient with me.

5. Within two years, I was a pretty good college level trumpet player, but it still felt weird and foreign.

6. Within 3 years, I had no real memory of the old way.

7. Within 5 years I won my first full-time professional audition.

8. It’s been over 20 years now since that summer and I still practice drills similar to when I was relearning the horn. Things are still getting better and easier.

9. At first, progress seemed to be measured in minutes and days as I figured things out, but looking back, it was a years and decades long process that still continues.

10. The hardest part was being so bad for so long. That weighs on your mind heavily, especially in college where you always know where you sit in the pecking order. Being below the bottom is a hard place to be when you’re working so hard.

11. In the end, my thinking changed more than my placement (which also changed). I think about the horn and sound production much differently than I did playing the old way.
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omelet
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
Quote:
The problem is, I'm almost 2 months in and I'm as inconsistent on this new embouchure as I am on the old.


Two months isn't a lot of time to address a daily habit 8 years in the making.


I don't think it is related to the length of time the previous habit was ingrained. It is pretty much starting over. It is hard to remember how long it took to feel natural when first learning probably because it is gradual. I did embouchure change and it was more like two years not two months.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Embouchure Change Questions Reply with quote

throckmorton42 wrote:

The problem is, I'm almost 2 months in and I'm as inconsistent on this new embouchure as I am on the old. Some days it feels like I'm progressing, but others not so much. I have no idea if this new embouchure will work for me because I do have a "weirder" oral structure, and I'm at the point where neither embouchure works well enough. I was wondering if anyone here could share their experiences with embouchure changes. I'm just feeling very ambivalent about the change right now and wondering if it will be worth it in the long run. Thanks so much!

A starting point for everyone here should be that we all have absolutely no idea how your setup was working, why it was the way it was and what you have actually changed to, nor the why and how you are going about it.

So all one can say is maybe, maybe not as an answer to your question.

What you could do is seek a second opinion. Find a reputable chop doc and sit down with them, tell all, play to them and see what they say. You’ll have to pay the, of course.

Cheers

Andy
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throckmorton42
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everyone! Thank you all so much for the replies. I played on the red in my original embouchure setup. I used very little upper lip, with rest of the upper lip sort of sticking out/resting on top of the mouthpiece. I'll attach a picture if I can figure out how!

My old teacher, who was part of the San Francisco Symphony (I've been with her from 9th grade through 11th) just advised me to work with what I had, as I'd already attained a certain level and she expected that I would have to quit all my musical obligations if I started the change. I played at a relatively "high level" (in high school terms) throughout this time, but what really pushed me to make the change was how little progress I realize I'd made since 9th grade. My high range wasn't really that great either; it was inconsistent at best, but I did have relatively good tone quality, musicality, & flexibility. My endurance peaked during 9th grade, when I was in marching band and symphony orchestra and played principal trumpet for 3-hour long concerts (and still played fine all that time). But endurance got a lot worse after that. I started improving a lot more in 11th grade - this was when I got into Tanglewood, Brevard, and Interlochen - but during college audition season, where I was overplaying almost every day, it seemed like all my progress had regressed to nothing.

I will also note that I'm neurodivergent, very attached to routine, and almost never taken days off my playing ever since middle school. Part of me wonders still whether the growing endurance and high range problems stemmed from overplaying, but I guess it's good to correct my mistakes while I still can. It's just that I was always so emotionally attached to trumpet before, but now I have to suppress that so it doesn't get to me when I'm relearning all over again! lol

I started with this new teacher because of his expertise in training & changing his students' embouchures, yes. He doesn't enforce a certain type of embouchure (e.g center, off-center) as long as both lips are inside the mouthpiece and the upper lip is made skinny. That's pretty much what my new embouchure is like—off to my left, skinnier upper lip, makes noise, but the response rate is not great yet. He said I was improving very quickly in the first few weeks and that I'm on track now, but I'm just worried because in the past I've always improved very quickly and sort of stagnated after that. Doing my best to prevent that, though![/img]
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I 'think' these are basic points that hopefully everyone can agree on - if anyone does disagree, PLEASE add your comments or corrections!
1) Your lips (usually the upper lip) has to be able to vibrate or 'pulse' when you play a low or mid-range note with an 'easy blow' - no straining should be needed.
2) Your lips should not be inhibited from vibrating or pulsing by using either too much mouthpiece rim pressure, or by too much lip 'effort'.

OP - does your current method conform to those basics? If you think it doesn't, then I suggest you discuss those points with your teacher.
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KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you're describing sounds like a mouthpiece placement change, not an embouchure change. Finding the sweet spot to place the mouthpiece on your face could take some time. If you're using your lips the same as before, you made a placement change, not an embouchure change.
The sweet spot may not be perfectly centered, or a perfect ratio of upper and lower lip. You might have to experiment a little, and while it may not look text book, it might work for you.
When I was in high school I sustained an injury to my top lip, causing scarring on the inside and outside. I had to change my placement setting, it took me about 3 months before I started to see positive results. The setting was a little different from where I tried the change.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP’s second post sheds a very different light in things. It’s really simple. Stop trying to second guess your teacher. Do what they say and see how things are after the summer.

After the summer. This is important.

Cheers

Andy
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
The OP’s second post sheds a very different light in things. It’s really simple. Stop trying to second guess your teacher. Do what they say and see how things are after the summer.

After the summer. This is important.

Cheers

Andy

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Billy B
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may be that there is nothing wrong with your embouchure but your thinking may need adjustment.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

throckmorton42 wrote:
Hi everyone! Thank you all so much for the replies. I played on the red in my original embouchure setup. I used very little upper lip...

I started with this new teacher because of his expertise in training & changing his students' embouchures, yes. He doesn't enforce a certain type of embouchure (e.g center, off-center) as long as both lips are inside the mouthpiece and the upper lip is made skinny. That's pretty much what my new embouchure is like—off to my left, skinnier upper lip, makes noise, but the response rate is not great yet. He said I was improving very quickly in the first few weeks and that I'm on track now, but I'm just worried because in the past I've always improved very quickly and sort of stagnated after that. Doing my best to prevent that, though![/img]


I don’t understand the comment regarding “skinny upper lip” . Thinning of the reed seems to go against the grain as far as keeping the lip vibrating. Do you have a good understanding of what they mean by that comment? I don’t, and it seems this is against teaching I’ve found to be accurate. I would ask them in detail what was meant, perhaps there is some mis understanding on one side or other. To me skinny lip means stretched (smile) or pressed (clamped) lip which how I haven’t heard is current wisdom. My issues are an octave above but remain the same, to my way of thinking give the upper lip the best chance to vibrate in the air column you have, thinning lips does not do that. You habe heard from many that play better and know more than me, but the skinny lip stood out to me as against the grain.
Rod

It may be I simply don’t understand your use of the term.
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wohlrab
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Save yourself a lot of trouble. Get off this site. Trust your teacher. Also, take a lesson with Bobby Shew. This site is a wealth of knowledge but there's no one size fits all method so you need someone who can help you individually. BE isn't a magic bullet. Bobbyshew.com
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wohlrab wrote:
Save yourself a lot of trouble. Get off this site. Trust your teacher. Also, take a lesson with Bobby Shew. This site is a wealth of knowledge but there's no one size fits all method so you need someone who can help you individually. BE isn't a magic bullet. Bobbyshew.com


Second that, best money I ever spent.
Rod
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You already decided to abandon your old way of playing, that took a lot of courage.

Now you are uncertain about your decision. That is natural

It is however a bit late when already in france to decide if it is a good idea to go to france. You are committed to the change so stick with it.

You are planting seeds that will mature into a better future.

When we plant seeds it takes a long time before we see the results.

You reap what you sow but you have to wait for the crop to mature.

After planting new seeds it can take anywhere from 3 months to 2 years to see the results and get a mature crop.

You are seeing seedlings right now. The strength of your eventual crop depends upon the care and effort you expend on it now

As Andy says you must wait and not second guess your teacher.
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