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Add Amado Water Key or stay Standard?



 
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:33 pm    Post subject: Add Amado Water Key or stay Standard? Reply with quote

I'm not really sure where this should go but I figure the Lounge is as neutral as anywhere.

My most recent Bb horn came without a 3rd valve water key and the slide does not have the separate 'pull-out' slide/insert(?). I'm going to have a water key added.

Anyway, I've never had a horn with Amado water keys but have read a lot on them and the different options. I'm not going to experiment with anything newer than the Amado, I know there are a couple of more recent designs.

My gut says just stay with a standard water key as I've used for many, many years or give my new to me B6 an "upgrade" and go to Amados for both the tuning and 3rd valve slide.

I'd like some input here. I'm not sure if there is any objective study that shows the Amado style is a definite improvement due to uninterrupted airflow or it's only opinions. Since I have no experience I'd like to hear what others have experienced. Any comments, in good taste, welcome.
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ayryq
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't speak to the aerodynamic effects of the two kinds of water key. But my picc has the Amado style and they get stuck all the time, both open and shut. Maybe they've improved but I have to oil them constantly or risk having either a leak in the airstream, or undrainable water. It's easy enough to fix by disassembling the water key, but the end is just a press fit and I'm also worried I'll wind up wearing it out so that the spring pushes the end out some day while I'm playing.

Once in grade school I had the cork fall out of a normal key but otherwise I've never had any problems with those.

If you get Amado keys, put a repair "kit" in your case consisting of a pin small enough to push through the little hole on the end, and don't forget to oil them.

There are other alternatives too; look up the Saturn key.
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ayryq wrote:
I can't speak to the aerodynamic effects of the two kinds of water key. But my picc has the Amado style and they get stuck all the time, both open and shut. Maybe they've improved but I have to oil them constantly or risk having either a leak in the airstream, or undrainable water. It's easy enough to fix by disassembling the water key, but the end is just a press fit and I'm also worried I'll wind up wearing it out so that the spring pushes the end out some day while I'm playing.

Once in grade school I had the cork fall out of a normal key but otherwise I've never had any problems with those.

If you get Amado keys, put a repair "kit" in your case consisting of a pin small enough to push through the little hole on the end, and don't forget to oil them.

There are other alternatives too; look up the Saturn key.


That's exactly one of my concerns. I've fixed cork issues with tissue, rubber bands, etc., they're pretty easy. I'm wondering if there is an upside to the Amado type?
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ayryq
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a few upsides as I understand it:
1. Cheaper. Fewer parts, one solder point on the horn instead of 2.
2. Less disruption to airstream
(3. Some prefer the more-streamlined look)
EDIT: Thought of a couple more:
4. Corks occasionally need replacement, Amado has no "wear" parts
5. Amado's coil springs are much less likely to break than torsion springs.

Many people use them and are very happy, experiencing no difficulties.

Another one I found: the Pollard water key, which is an evolution of the Amado. It has a cone instead of cylinder so it can't get stuck as easily.
https://www.pollardwaterkey.com/aboutkey

I think if you're looking for an "upgrade" it would be the Pollard or the Saturn. They have a different look from the usual lever-type or Amado.

Or if you want something very different, there's the JoyKey which continuously dumps water through a kind of filter.
https://thejoykey.com/
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Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
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Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had an Amado key placed on my third slide to repair a hole in the slide right about where a water key would go. It's been on there over fifteen years and I've never had an issue. A drop of oil every other time I oil my valves and it always moves freely.
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Speed
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have trumpets with both. On the ones with pads, I change them annually, and I keep a spare spring on hand. On the Amado ones, I oil them weekly with valve oil and change the retaining clips annually. That may be a little overkill, but I've never had a failure at a critical time.

I've not had the opportunity to play trumpets that were otherwise identical, but one had a standard lever key and the other had an Amado one, so I have no standard of comparison.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have Amados, versions of Amado and of course standard lever.
As long as you keep Amado/Amado-type clean and oiled a little, they’re not especially problematic.

BUT: just my opinion, I would never add any waterkey especially on the third slide to a horn not originally designed with them. Alterations to the third slide can sometimes do wonky things to a horn, personally I would not chance it or change it; you can’t un-drill a hole if you don’t like what happens, or what MIGHT happen, anyway.

Brad
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Brad. There are additional factors to consider. Like how sensitive you are to changes. Or the stress and metal changes associated with soldering an extra chunk of metal on the slide.

That said, purchasing another slide either to experiment on or to replace a failed experiment shouldn’t be prohibitive in cost or access.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cheapest and easiest solution is to get used to using the second valve slide. That's what I've done. It's a bit of a maneuver but it works fine.
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the way the horn plays and feels right now. I'm also a believer in the 'don't fix what ain't broke' school...dilemma. Never tried using the 2nd valve slide although I've seen it done by a bunch of folks. I just always thought Amado keys were some kind of an airway 'upgrade' but I don't want to mess with a good horn.

Now I'm thinking it's better to leave well enough alone, thanks for the input.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, so, I just adjust my left hand to hold the horn while depressing both 2nd and 3rd valves. Then I use my right hand to pull the 2nd valve slide, hold the mouthpiece with the palm of my right hand, and tip the trumpet bell up. Works great, it's quick, and I haven't dropped a mouthpiece yet.

Best wishes!
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ECLtmpt2 wrote:
I just always thought Amado keys were some kind of an airway 'upgrade' but I don't want to mess with a good horn.

I believe that Amado water keys were invented in part to eliminate the chimney used with the lever key design which is mounted on the outer surface of the crook or tuning slide.

When the Amado is closed the inner surface of the slide/crook tubing ends up with little or no depressions in it.

Tony Scodwell who is a member here on TH who knows the Amado history and might have posted answers to your questions on here already. For instance check out this thread where Tony provides an Amado history lesson.

(If you want to do your own research for info on TH use the search string “site:trumpetherald.com Amado” on google, bing, etc. Don’t use the forum’s built in search, it sucks.)
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
ECLtmpt2 wrote:
I just always thought Amado keys were some kind of an airway 'upgrade' but I don't want to mess with a good horn.

I believe that Amado water keys were invented in part to eliminate the chimney used with the lever key design which is mounted on the outer surface of the crook or tuning slide.

When the Amado is closed the inner surface of the slide/crook tubing ends up with little or no depressions in it.

Tony Scodwell who is a member here on TH who knows the Amado history and might have posted answers to your questions on here already. For instance check out this thread where Tony provides an Amado history lesson.

(If you want to do your own research for info on TH use the search string “site:trumpetherald.com Amado” on google, bing, etc. Don’t use the forum’s built in search, it sucks.)


This.☝️

Especially the part about Tony Scodwell, I believe he is as or more knowledgeable about Amado and Amado waterkeys as anyone.
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Brad361"]
LittleRusty wrote:
ECLtmpt2 wrote:


(If you want to do your own research for info on TH use the search string “site:trumpetherald.com Amado” on google, bing, etc. Don’t use the forum’s built in search, it sucks.)


Thank you, THANK YOU!! I'm pretty new on this forum and have tried the search function for some of these high discussion topics with terrible results. Now I have a tool...again, "Thank You".
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ECLtmpt2 wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
ECLtmpt2 wrote:


(If you want to do your own research for info on TH use the search string “site:trumpetherald.com Amado” on google, bing, etc. Don’t use the forum’s built in search, it sucks.)


Thank you, THANK YOU!! I'm pretty new on this forum and have tried the search function for some of these high discussion topics with terrible results. Now I have a tool...again, "Thank You".

Yeah, I was really happy when I discovered an alternative to the forum’s search years back.
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