Chemical Cleaning

[PNut]

1955 Olds Ambassador - Fullerton

I"ve been maintaining my own saxophones for the last five years.

I've disassembled my trumpet which is really dirty. Even had to solder off the main tuning slide to get it out.

I've been watching Art's YouTube Channel - The Brass and Woodwind Shop - New York, which is very informative.

Chemical cleaning looks very straight forward.

Feree's has Z19 Lime and Scale Remover. Add to a specific amount of water, and soak for an certain amount of time.

For just one trumpet, I don't want to shell out a lot of money for a chemical cleaning.

I realize there are professional techs who do this, but there must be an off the shelf product like CLR - at a specific concentration that would do the same thing.

Has anyone had success with a similar product?
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[JayKosta]

Is there actual significant lime/scale build-up in the horn? If not, then successful cleaning can be done with a flexible swab / snake / brush.
Household vinegar can also be used to help remove / soften lime/scale.

Chem and UltraSonic cleaning are useful for professional use in order to reduce the amount of labor time and cost. Manual cleaning methods can work fine, but do require more hand work time.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[PNut]

Ok, I will give that a go.

Thx!
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Gotta Love Music

[JayKosta]

[huntman10]

SOMETIMES, a horn just has to get the full chemical treatment, but I do a lot of buying and trading of old horns (trumpets and cornets), and can often get them in good playing order by flushing and soaking the horn with dishwashing soap (I like Dawn brand) and running a snake cleaning brush through all the tubing. I use water as hot as I can stand, but be aware that really hot water may strip old cellulose based lacquer.

For stubborn slides, I have a low jar of water with about 1/4 of Simple Green household cleaner which is safe but helps strip off the accumulated old slide grease and corrosion and loosen internal crud. I have added on occasion a little CLR to loosen hard crud, but be very aware that it can strip plating, especially on pistons! I leave the slides in this bath for about 30 minutes.

You will need to wash out the Simple Green with more dishwashing water, and polish the slide tubes with old T shirt rags, and if necessary, a paste silver polish which I find excellent to restore smooth slide action. Then wash out the slides to remove any paste.

If your trumpet leadpipe has any buildup or corrosion spots, I have found that a pistol cleaning rod that has a T shaped handle with a 38 caliber NYLON BRISTLE bore brush will do wonders to clean out the crud layer, and in many cases, restore the resonance in an old horn that has become stuffy and "dead". The brush will require a bit of force, as the entry into the leadpipe is smaller, but the nylon brush is softer than the brass or nickel of your pipe.

To improve valve action, I use one of those trumpet cleaning rods with a round loop for you finger and a slot for a cleaning cloth at the other end. Wrap some old but clean T shirt material (T shirt material, or cheesecloth from the auto parts store if you don't want to trash any of your wardrobe doesn't leave loose threads) and wrap it where it fits tightly in the cylinder and squeegee the inner cylinder walls to clean out the old buildup.

Then, lube the slides (and threads on your valve caps) with quality slide lube before assembly. Put valve oil (since the OP is a saxophonist, I have to add this) NOT KEY OIL to the pistons as you drop them in. Blow as much of the water out of the horn as you can, and drop 4 or 6 drops of valve oil into the leadpipe and huff and puff the oil through the horn.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[Crazy Finn]

I speak as someone who has mostly cleaned their own horns but also worked retail in a music shop with a repair shop and learned just a bit and occasionally used the chem clean and ultrasonic machine in the repair shop from time to time.

The professional machines and products are able to do things that you can't do at home with a brush and Dawn. Even things like Simple Green and CLR.
They just do. The acid bath and ultrasonic are able to dislodge and break down deposits that you can't at home. That's not to say you need to use them all the time, but if you need a thorough cleaning, there is no substitute.

Personally, when I got a new horn, I always had it professionally cleaned. I'm just like that.

I guess it depends on how you want to roll.

I'm not familiar with the Feree's product mentioned by the OP, though I vaguely remember it being mentioned. One thing to keep in mind is many of the professional products mentioned are more difficult for the general public to get a hold of as they are technically hazardous and disposing of it is something that needs to be done in a certain manner.

Anyway, good luck.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[PNut]

Thx!
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Gotta Love Music

[huntman10]

Hey Finn,

I believe I opened with a disclaimer that sometimes a horn must be professionally cleaned, and I do get horns flushed and ultra sonically cleaned.. in fact over the years, I have always had my own dedicated shelf at whatever shop I was using for my more challenging "projects". But many horns I have acquired will play as well with a couple of hours in my sink. In fact, I always start with this regimen, and if the horn still won't pass muster, it is off to "my guy", who frankly has told me he prefers to get them after I have done my prep and gives me a discount.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[Crazy Finn]

[huntman10]

Finn,

No offense taken. I, too, believe in thoroughly cleaning any horn I receive, but do it myself. Hot water and detergent work for me, and I really wish that I could afford my own ultrasonic tank. I do have a small ultrasonic tank that I use for slides and pistons (and those nasty bottom valve caps) . Does wonders for those problem areas.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[PNut]

Soaked these in lemon juice for one hour. Before and after.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uJTYmYGCdUxnJREq7
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[Dave_3]

I grabbed an old Yamaha cornet from the big auction site a couple of years ago, for $90. It's a little worn, but plays fine, and I wanted to give it a good cleaning. The cornet wasn't too dirty, but it did have a bit of a funky smell. I didn't want to spend much (any) money on it, so I picked up one of those liquid dishwasher cleaners at the grocery store. It is designed to clean limescale, grease, detergent residue, etc. I used it full strength (wear gloves, safety glasses, etc.), and gave the horn a good bath. It worked pretty well, and now the horn has a nice clean smell, too.

Not sure I would use it on a high dollar horn, but it worked fine on that old "beater", and it only cost a few bucks.

YMMV.

[huntman10]

Dave,

Regarding those dishwasher cleaners, many use a strong citric acid, much stronger than lemon juice example above. I was doing one of my part soaks as described previously in this thread, and put about a tablespoon of the dishwasher cleaner in my mixture of about 16 ounces of the Simple green and water mixture, and put a set of Bundy pistons in the jar, and went off to let it soak. After a couple of hours, the pistons had lost a lot of their plating. Of course, most Bundies are a bit leaky, but it was not an improvement. But the slides were really clean! It was mostly a scrap horn anyway, but I would take it as a warning to be cautious in these experiments.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[Dave_3]

huntman10,

That's good information. Thinking back on it, I'm not sure I used that cleaner on the pistons, at all, as they were actually pretty clean when I got the horn. I was mostly trying to get rid of the funky smell. I did pour the cleaner through all the slides, the bell, etc., and let it sit for a few minutes, but not much longer than that. Then, I washed everything as I normally do, with some dish soap. I may have dodged a bullet.

[Crazy Finn]

FWI -

When repair shops have acid baths and ultrasonic machines, they don't let instruments sit in there for long periods of time.

Generally, a horn sits in the acid bath for 2-4 minutes. 5 tops. If it's really bad, you can put it back in, but then you're gambling with some things. One poster above mentioned acid on the valves. That's something to be careful with. I wouldn't leave them in longer than one go of 3 or so minutes.

Ultrasonic is a bit friendlier to some things. Generally, the cycle is 3 minutes. If it's got really patchy lacquer, you might lose some in that time. If it's plating, then there is zero worries. It's going to be fine with the valves, too.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[PNut]

I'm happy to announce, after soaking the trumpet and slide valves in a dilute amount of CLR with warm water for one hour, it really loosened up the grime.

Scrubbed with Dawn Liquid Soap and my trumpet snake. Tada! No more funky 1955 smell. Looks much cleaner, and smells great!

Did the same with the piston valves, misc screws, and valve caps, only a tad more concentrated. Wow! A lot of dirt came off. Still some heavy corrosion inside the valve ports, so I might have to repeat that.

It's an old trumpet so don't do this with a good one.

There is residual gunk in crevices that this won't remove, and a professional cleaning most certainly would.
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Gotta Love Music