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PNut
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 Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:53 am Post subject: Rubber Rings |
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'55 Olds Ambassador Fremont trumpet which I am currently refurbishing. It doesn't have those black rubber rings on the 3rd slide. Should it have those?
Like here on this video of a Super Olds.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/3NUt-uQQkT4?t=156[/youtube]
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| They are not necessary. I usually take them off of all of my students' horns. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:51 am Post subject: |
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I don't recall the slide 'bumpers' being used until much later.
edit - I mentioned this in regards to 'refurbishing' to similar to original configuration. Not as a comment on how the bumpers might affect the horn or its sound.
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Last edited by JayKosta on Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TrumpetMD
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Rubber Rings |
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| PNut wrote: | | '55 Olds Ambassador Fremont trumpet which I am currently refurbishing. It doesn't have those black rubber rings on the 3rd slide. Should it have those? |
Some like rubber slide O-rings, others don't like them. I use them on my horns.
Mike
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trpthrld
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Read Schilke's "Physics of Inner Brass" and you'll find they are not only completely useless but will also affect your horn negatively.
Yes, people will say "But they eliminate the sound of metal hitting metal when I retract an extended slide."
Be honest - unless a person is intentionally banging their slides in - when was the last time you heard that sound in a rehearsal, performance or recording?
Same with rubber bumpers on spit valve levers and 3rd slide rods. Yes, the spit valve bumpers will help keep you from possibly damaging the slide, but more so that rubber will absorb and dampen vibration.
And trumpet sound is all about vibration.
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jimpops
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: |
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The bumpers are only necessary on slides with a trigger with a spring. My Olds Recording has bumpers for the third valve slide with the trigger.
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PNut
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Thx! I just found a video with that spring action. He didn't use bumpers, what a clanging sound.
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| I have two Bbs that have a spring loaded first valve trigger and have no issue with noise. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| trpthrld wrote: | | Read Schilke's "Physics of Inner Brass" and you'll find they are not only completely useless but will also affect your horn negatively |
Is the link below the complete Schilke's "Physics of Inner Brass"?
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Brass_Clinic.html
It doesn't say anything about slide bumpers.
Where did Schilke talk about slide bumpers?
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PNut
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:32 am Post subject: Link |
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The video for the spring action.
Not sure if it would be audible, but I know some guys who can hear a pin drop in a rainstorm.
https://youtu.be/ICRwoUq_7as?t=77
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trpthrld
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | trpthrld wrote: | | Read Schilke's "Physics of Inner Brass" and you'll find they are not only completely useless but will also affect your horn negatively |
Is the link below the complete Schilke's "Physics of Inner Brass"?
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Brass_Clinic.html
It doesn't say anything about slide bumpers.
Where did Schilke talk about slide bumpers? |
Read between the lines.
Schilke talks about gaps. Bumpers / O-rings create gaps. According the Schilke, gaps are bad.
Eliminating gaps is what inspired the tuning bell design. The "L," as in "B1-L" stands for "Long bell," because with the tuning slide all the way in and the tuning bell all the way and and with a Schilke mouthpiece, technically the bell of the horn starts with the mouthpiece and goes all the way to the end of the bell with no gaps. Extending the tuning bell does create a gap but reduces it from two (created by pulling the tuning slide) down to one.
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| trpthrld wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | trpthrld wrote: | | Read Schilke's "Physics of Inner Brass" and you'll find they are not only completely useless but will also affect your horn negatively |
Is the link below the complete Schilke's "Physics of Inner Brass"?
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Brass_Clinic.html
It doesn't say anything about slide bumpers.
Where did Schilke talk about slide bumpers? |
Read between the lines.
Schilke talks about gaps. Bumpers / O-rings create gaps. According the Schilke, gaps are bad.
Eliminating gaps is what inspired the tuning bell design. The "L," as in "B1-L" stands for "Long bell," because with the tuning slide all the way in and the tuning bell all the way and and with a Schilke mouthpiece, technically the bell of the horn starts with the mouthpiece and goes all the way to the end of the bell with no gaps. Extending the tuning bell does create a gap but reduces it from two (created by pulling the tuning slide) down to one. |
Your reference is specifically to Schilke's article "Physics of Inner Brass." I read the article again and it doesn't mention anything about gaps. Thus my question about whether what I'm reading is the complete article. If it is then is there another article by Schilke where he talks specifically about slide bumpers?
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Divitt Trumpets
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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The gaps Schilke talks about are much much larger than the ones theoretically created by a bumper ring. He's talking about the gap between the tuning slide and leadpipe, and tuning slide and lower outer main tuning slide. That can add up to between 1/4" and 1.5" depending on how you place your slide. The thickness of an o ring is .025", which gives you .05" gap total if the slide is perfectly assembled.
Do a check and measure the bearing length of the inner slide tube vs the bearing length of the outer slide tube. I'm sure you'll find a gap where the tube and crook meet. Perfect assembly is rare.
The 1st and 3rd slides are meant to be used to tune as you play, so the gap will be there regardless of the o ring, and will also not affect the instrument if the valve for that slide isn't being pressed.
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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IF you are going to add those rings, get neoprene ones. They're cheap at any hardware store.
I'm not advocating for them, horns never used to have them, back in the day, it's in the last 20 years, that it's become more of a thing.
| trpthrld wrote: | | Be honest - unless a person is intentionally banging their slides in - when was the last time you heard that sound in a rehearsal, performance or recording? |
I was in a recording session once, and you could here my third valve slide clinking when it went back in. It was fairly noticeable. I did add a neoprene ring to either the top or bottom for this reason for the session. It seemed to sound the same and then I wasn't stressed about using my slide.
I don't think it's still on there, so I've removed it since.
I think I put o-rings on all my bottom valve caps at one time. I didn't think about it at the time, but I think it did have a negative impact on my sound. They're not on there anymore.
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trpthrld
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | trpthrld wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | trpthrld wrote: | | Read Schilke's "Physics of Inner Brass" and you'll find they are not only completely useless but will also affect your horn negatively |
Is the link below the complete Schilke's "Physics of Inner Brass"?
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Brass_Clinic.html
It doesn't say anything about slide bumpers.
Where did Schilke talk about slide bumpers? |
Read between the lines.
Schilke talks about gaps. Bumpers / O-rings create gaps. According the Schilke, gaps are bad.
Eliminating gaps is what inspired the tuning bell design. The "L," as in "B1-L" stands for "Long bell," because with the tuning slide all the way in and the tuning bell all the way and and with a Schilke mouthpiece, technically the bell of the horn starts with the mouthpiece and goes all the way to the end of the bell with no gaps. Extending the tuning bell does create a gap but reduces it from two (created by pulling the tuning slide) down to one. |
Your reference is specifically to Schilke's article "Physics of Inner Brass." I read the article again and it doesn't mention anything about gaps. Thus my question about whether what I'm reading is the complete article. If it is then is there another article by Schilke where he talks specifically about slide bumpers? |
The article on your link is not the complete "Physics of Inner Brass." That was a something he printed, published and sold. I got my copy from the S. Wabash shop when it was $3.00. The "Schilke Brass Clinic" to which you refer has much of the material contained in the full publication, but not all.
Get a copy of full publication, then read page 13. Let me clarify - on my copy, it's p. 13. It's possible if it's still published that the typeset may put information on different pages.
I also never said Ren said anything about "slide bumpers." What I did say was that bumpers and O-rings create gaps, and Ren, IMO, believed gaps to not be a good thing. This was explained to me by him personally several times on my visits to the S. Wabash Ave. shop in the mid-70s and in the full publication. I'm fairly sure he went into a decent explanation in the Schilke catalogs from the 70s where he explains the benefits of his tuning - or LONG BELL - model trumpets which did about as good a job of eliminating gaps as possible.
Let me state that IMO slide bumpers, O-rings and other rubber accouterment are not necessary and because of the gaps that bumpers and O-rings create they may negatively affect they way a horn plays.
That's my opinion. Good day, Sir.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| trpthrld wrote: | | Be honest - unless a person is intentionally banging their slides in - when was the last time you heard that sound in a rehearsal, performance or recording? ... that rubber will absorb and dampen vibration.
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I started putting them on horns I play after hearing that clicking sound clearly in a recording made with the church sound system - so not like the mic was right there.
A flat half-inch o-ring a 32nd of an inch by well less than a 32nd does not have enough mass to dampen, nor is the interior wall disruption going to do anything to flow that is already turbulent, thus it will not impact efficiency, intonation or spectrum.
How one grips the horn would, on paper, have drastically more impact - and doesn't typically have any. My guess is that this is a matter of needing to be coupled to the system to effect it (like soldered). Surface contact is probably a very elastic interface.
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benlewis
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Neither a pro- nor an anti-ring comment, but I found that hobby shops were a great source of small neopreme o-rings that are designed for use on RC cars. They won't react with silver plate and are available in assorted sizes...
HTH
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JonathanM
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting thread.
Tim; how many of the pros you work with use the rubber/similar material bumpers? Pretty much none, a few, some?
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trpthrld
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deleted_user_687c31b
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Funny there should be a thread about this, as I was thinking if getting those rings for my Olds Super cornet. The first slide makes a pretty loud 'clank' when closing it. My Getzen trumpet has very thin rubber bands on the third slide (about half a millimeter) and I can't imagine they'd have a great impact on the sound (though honestly I've never taken them off to compare).
| trpthrld wrote: | | Be honest - unless a person is intentionally banging their slides in - when was the last time you heard that sound in a rehearsal, performance or recording? |
On my Olds Super cornet, I find it really, really annoying and distracting. The sounds of slides and valves in general doesn't bother me much, but this particular one does, especially since it requires a little more force than usual to move, and it's close to my face.
You're probably right that I'm the only one hearing it though. |
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