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Which mouthpiece variables do you change with the context?



 
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mograph
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:21 am    Post subject: Which mouthpiece variables do you change with the context? Reply with quote

I've been playing for fun for forty years now, and am trying to correct years of bad habits. During COVID, I've been firming up my embouchure before I go trying new mouthpieces. I'd like a solid range to high C, with good flexibility first. I've got the C, working on the slurs and comfort in the higher half of the range. But I haven't tested my endurance yet, so there's that to work on.

For my Bach 37, I have a few mouthpieces, Bach, Schilke, Benge, Yamaha, and right now a Bach 5C (from about 1985) feels good, and I like the dark tone it gives. But this morning, I picked up an old Benge 7C for the hell of it, and was able to play a pretty strong high F, then gliss it up to a double C with really good volume, which was a surprise. But I'm treating that experience as a data point, not a revelation: more testing is necessary.

Anyway, I've read the documents about mouthpiece variables, rims, throat, depth, width, and so on.

In your opinion(s), for one B-flat trumpet, and more than one mouthpiece, which of those variables would a player keep constant (for a few years, at least), and which would a player change depending on the venue or gig?

Do they keep everything the same between their mouthpieces, except cup depth, which they might change to get a different tone between genres or venues?

Thanks very much.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of it is something you can quantify. It's all personal preference.
Some people will play totally different mouthpieces depending on circumstances, and some like to keep things the same.

Personally, I'm very sensitive to rim diameter, so all my mouthpieces have the same rim, but I've got a few cup depths and backbores to choose from.
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mograph
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conventional wisdom says if you are changing pieces for different situations you want to keep the same inner rim diameter.
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mograph
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I’m not expecting anything to be carved in stone; just seeing if there are tendencies.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is entirely down to the individual what changes he or she is capable of accommodating.

Some players cannot accommodate any changes to rim diameter rim width or rim bite.

These players can only alter the cup depth and cup shape and they cannot alter anything else without compromising their playing.

Some players on the other hand can accommodate changes to some or all the variables. This gives them far more opportunity to change their timbre and tonality.

I have trained myself to easily and immediately play on any mouthpiece of any shape or size and any bite. This allows me maximum opportunity to change timbre and tonality.

I use that ability to use different mouthpieces, to modify the timbre of each of my instruments so they all have a similar tone. I can play on anything from bright trumpet to dark trumpet and from bright cornet to dark cornet and by this means tailor each instruments tone to match my preferred performance tone.

This means that I can deliver a consistent performance regardless of the instrument I play on. Around a week ago I had to use this ability.

I was run over in the street by a car while carrying my cherished principle performance instrument a conn 80a cornet. I had just performed on it. I flew through the air and I found it had been flattened when I picked it up, and is now shaped like a pretzel. I wasnt in much better shape myself.

Once I had recovered I had to change my instrument so I grabbed a trumpet and I was able to perform exactly the same with the same tones on the trumpet that I had generated on the cornet.

It is a good and valuable skill to have it allows the player to control the tonality, the ability to blend, and also if your instrument is totally lost it is not a disaster or even a difficulty.

It is all about what changes you as a player can learn to accommodate and it is possible to be completely mouthpiece agnostic.
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mograph
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
It is a good and valuable skill to have it allows the player to control the tonality, the ability to blend, and also if your instrument is totally lost it is not a disaster or even a difficulty.

It is all about what changes you as a player can learn to accommodate and it is possible to be completely mouthpiece agnostic.


Thanks, Bflatman -- that does sound like a useful skill. Okay, that's the goal.

(Glad you've recovered from the accident.)
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am reminded of the mariachi player who didn't know the trumpet needed a mouthpiece and learned to play without it. Whine about the rim sharpness, diameter and bore size and then think about playing without a mouthpiece.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mograph wrote:
Bflatman wrote:
It is a good and valuable skill to have it allows the player to control the tonality, the ability to blend, and also if your instrument is totally lost it is not a disaster or even a difficulty.

It is all about what changes you as a player can learn to accommodate and it is possible to be completely mouthpiece agnostic.


Thanks, Bflatman -- that does sound like a useful skill. Okay, that's the goal.

(Glad you've recovered from the accident.)
I'm confused are you trying to sound the same all the time, or change your sound for different settings??
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with some of the other posters: it’s pretty personal. As a hobbyist, I use different mouthpieces to change the timbre of my sound. If you get really skilled, that may be something you can so through technique but I need different mouthpieces for that. As such, I’ve mostly played mouthpieces that were vastly different rather than having similarities. Two years ago, that meant BestBrass 7E for pop/jazz and Bach 1 1/2C for classical (flat vs bowl, switching between them during a gig was brutal at first, but I slowly got used to it). The pieces I currently play are less extreme but still vary in material, cup/rim size and backbore. The various aspects of the mouthpieces work together to make it work the way it does. Even for rim size (which many players often prefer to remain constant) I found that for my lead piece it helped my embouchure to have a slightly smaller rim.

Then again, I’m the village crazy lady so weird is part of the job.
Richard III wrote:
I am reminded of the mariachi player who didn't know the trumpet needed a mouthpiece and learned to play without it. Whine about the rim sharpness, diameter and bore size and then think about playing without a mouthpiece.

That’s awesome.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fall on the side of keeping the same rim or as close as possible when changing the other attributes. The rim is what contacts the chops and subborts what the body does.
The rest of the mouthpiece is a support to the chop vibration, air flow, and transition to the trumpet.

Something else is the trumpet. The mouthpiece and trumpet work in tandem. I don't think you can logically or efficiently change the tonal character of the trumpet too far just by mouthpiece alone. We can't change it's spots too much. There is an obtimal balance between trumpet, mouthpiece, and chops.

I tend to match the mouthpiece with the character I want out of a specific instrument. For tradtional / everyday use I have a Bach 37 - Curry 3C setup, and for commercial work I have Bach 1B "commercial" with a Currry 3 *. My C trumpet, Picc, etc have mouthpiece setups that match them. I rarely change the mouthpiece setup on on each instrument - it's a very specific reason for doing so, I'm more apt to switch instruments to achieve the desired tamber change.
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mograph
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
mograph wrote:
Bflatman wrote:
It is a good and valuable skill to have it allows the player to control the tonality, the ability to blend, and also if your instrument is totally lost it is not a disaster or even a difficulty.

It is all about what changes you as a player can learn to accommodate and it is possible to be completely mouthpiece agnostic.


Thanks, Bflatman -- that does sound like a useful skill. Okay, that's the goal.

(Glad you've recovered from the accident.)
I'm confused are you trying to sound the same all the time, or change your sound for different settings??


Apologies for the confusion. It would be great to, at some point in my life, to have such a strong embouchure concept that I can keep it no matter what mouthpiece I encounter, within reason. However, at this stage, as I test mouthpieces, I would like to find a center, a range of mouthpieces that will allow me to have strong attacks and good flexibility. I see timbre as something I can vary based on context.

So, while I am currently still working to improve my skill on one mouthpiece (the Bach 5A or the Benge 7C -- I'm between at the moment), I think that once I start trying mouthpieces, I would want to find the spec (e.g. rim width) that is right for my mouth, and eschew the spec that is "wrong:" in other words, that would be the spec that doesn't affect my timbre so much, but affects how easily I can hit the attack and flexibility marks.

So, my question was based on the idea that for many players, there are specs that are "right or wrong" for them, and specs that are "for this gig or that." I assume that if a spec determines if the piece is right or wrong, once they find the "right" spec, they will stick with it, and change other specs to suit the playing context.

As others have confirmed, I think the "right or wrong" spec might be the rim width, while the depth might be the "this gig or that" spec. As for the rim shape, my understanding is that it's a tradeoff between attacks and flex, and might also be a "right or wrong" spec. So a player might settle on a rim width and rim shape for a few years, but have different depths for different applications.

I don't know if I could ever be mouthpiece-agnostic, but as I try different mouthpieces, I'll see how well I can adapt, or whether I really can only play on a narrow range of mouthpieces.

(And yep, I get that a lot of this is subjective and personal.)

Does that make sense?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mograph wrote:
... I would like to find a center, a range of mouthpieces that will allow me to have strong attacks and good flexibility. I see timbre as something I can vary based on context.
...
Does that make sense?

--------------------------------------
Yes it makes 'sense', but it seems there isn't a good menu of specs that will predict how a particular mouthpiece will feel, or work. And especially when trying to compare mouthpieces from different makers, era, styles, etc.

Things such as rim diameter / shape, cup depth, alpha angle, throat #, backbore, etc. can help - but it will ultimately come down to personal testing for a reasonable duration. And it is sometimes much more informative to ask someone else for the 'audience perspective'.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaw04

Apologies for confusion.

I change mouthpiece to change tonal structure and timbre as you would expect, but I change the tonality of the instrument and mouthpiece pairing so as to bring the tones of the instrument and mouthpiece pairings as close together as possible.

I like to think that whatever instrument I pick up my tone will be similar.

The best way I can describe it is, I found that changing instruments would often lead to tonal shifts until I got used to the instrument but now it is a swift and easy change without sounding too different. So I can relax more and have less stress about a change.

If I am on stage and my principle instrument fails on me my backup will sound like a good match and be unnoticeable to the audience with no preparation. This approach removes one of the risks in performing.

I could go the other way of course and modify the tone to suit different genres and styles of music which is perhaps more usual, but increasingly it is of less importance to me than sounding consistent on whatever I play on.

I have a sound in my head so I try to match all my instruments to that

I solo all the time and I might take a different approach if I was playing in an ensemble and wanting to blend more but right now this suits me.
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mograph
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much for the answers, everyone!
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1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are hoping to systematically experiment with mouthpiece sizes, and cup depths, you will be hard pressed to do it with Bach, Schilke or Yamaha. (Or the Benge).

As an example - comparing a Bach 5C and Bach 5B. Both are nice mouthpieces but have different rim shapes, cup shapes and depths, and different backbores.
The Bach 1 1/2C, Bach 3C and Bach 7C have different rim shapes and cup shapes.

http://kanstul.com/MPcompare/MouthpieceComparator.html

Curry and Warburton mouthpieces would allow you to do those comparisons better.

(The UMI Bach clone Benge mouthpieces were actually very good players but I don't think they were very close Bach copies. So the 7C you have might actually be a larger size. You might try to measure it. They are no longer produced but show up on eBay from time to time.)

Pick a mouthpiece that does not cut into your lip and does everything uniformly good enough- then stick with it for a few months before experimenting again.
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mograph
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
If you are hoping to systematically experiment with mouthpiece sizes, and cup depths, you will be hard pressed to do it with Bach, Schilke or Yamaha. (Or the Benge).


I was going to start the research with a manufacturer who is more precise (probably Curry), and see if I can reproduce the feeling of the 5A (probably) by picking a few from mouthpiece express, then returning the ones that don't work. I pretty much get that the numbers in the two mouthpieces I already have are largely meaningless.

Thanks for the reply, and I agree with your assessment!
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