When does throat size matter?

[kevin_soda]

So, this is a fairly polarizing topic for some reason. The "standard" is considered #27 throat, or 0.1440", according to the Pickett website. Many consider "modern" designs to be "huge", like, basically anything bigger than #24, or 0.1520. I've had the best luck with Monette and AR mouthpieces but I've also been enjoying a recently acquired Pickett 2C top with OS/24 backbore. The reason I bring it up is the 2C top has a standard #27 throat and I wouldn't consider it a mismatch to the #24 backbore. Furthermore, my AR tops (#21 throat, or 0.1590") are barely a hair different from the #27 and I can interchange these components without noticing any obvious difference. So, why do people make such a big deal out of these thousandths of an inch? When does throat size actually make a difference and how can you hear the effects of the changes? Maybe because I'm only using short shanks with broad backbores, the throat size doesn't matter?
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Kevin

[Tpt_Guy]

Throat size always matters. It has to be balanced, both in length and diameter, to the cup and backbore.

When there is a mismatch the mouthpiece won't yield the results you're looking for. The catch is that it isn't immediately obvious to most players exactly what aspect of a mouthpiece -- cup, throat, or backbore -- is causing the problem so a lot of players start with modifying the throat. This can destroy a mouthpiece.

While I prefer a 25-23 throat size, in my own playing I find the backbore a more influential factor in mouthpiece design.

This a good read, though a bit technical.

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/images/Conns_Blue_Booklet.pdf
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[Bflatman]

My understanding, and dont shoot the messenger on this, is that when Vincent Bach started producing mouthpieces throat size was not fixed or standardised.

What he did was make the smallest throat anyone would ever want - a 27, and ship with each mouthpiece a reaming tool so they could ream out the throat to their chosen correct size.

He also offered to ream the throat for his customers if they did not wish to ream it themselves.

In other words Vincent Bach knew the 27 was too small for many players but by making all mouthpieces too small he maximised his sales.

The problem is players did not ream out the throats much if at all and 27 then became a standard throat size so he eventually stopped shipping reamers

This explains why some original Bach mouthpieces have larger throats than 27 this is not Bach inconsistency this is players using the Bach reamer as Bach intended.

In my view there is no standard throat size I side with Bach on this and many players may find it useful to ream the throat.

I think Tpt_Guy is right on the money with his well studied post. Opening the throat should be done with care so as to not open it too much.
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[zaferis]

Everything matters-there is a relationship between all the parts to include the trumpet and your chops, and yes, we do measure changes to the thousandths of an inch.

The link that Tpt_Guy offered is excellent. It describes the functions of each part of a mouthpiece and effects of changing those elements.

Changing throat size will shange the relationship of the overtone series-intonation. Wiill affect how easy it is to play dynamics, especially in the high register, and has a big impact on endurance.
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[B. Scriver]

When looking at the bore of the throat, you must also consider, well, every other parameter.

What about the length of the throat? The bore is basically a cylinder and it has volume so consider both the diameter and the length as a function of blow resistance. Bore it out and what happens to the length?

Ever consider the throat entrance and exit transitions and how they affect resistance? The effect is profound when you alter those, more so than a slight change in bore diameter.

Usually if a player is experiencing too much resistance, the culprit is the alpha angle. The throat gets blamed and gets punished with a drill bit but in most cases, the alpha angle is the bad boy.

What about cup diameter and lip engagement? Backbore? Rim contour and how that affects the chop engagement? Gap? let's not even go there yet.

You really have to look at the entire mouthpiece as one entity if you are having issues. Looking at just the bore diameter without taking everything else into consideration will just lead to frustration and ruined mouthpieces.

Bri

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com

[Richard III]

Question for Brian. Well done explanation by the way. What do you think of the systems of interchangeable parts that allow you to mix and match trying out different combinations?
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[kevin_soda]

[scottfsmith]

Based on the wide throat mouthpieces I have measured, they have a longer and more perfectly cylindrical "drill/bore". Most mouthpiece bores in fact are not perfectly cylindrical even though they look it with the eye, they are slightly flaring out. With a wider overall throat you can afford to make it longer and more perfectly cylindrical without changing the overall resistance (less resistance with wider throat but more resistance with longer and less flaring throat). So, it looks like there will be less resistance with a wide throat, but there might not be! That might be why it doesn't seem that different playing them.

Lead mouthpieces tend to have a long cylindrical throat as well. In general the long throat helps notes speak more reliably.

My current custom piece has a #11 throat, but it is completely cylindrical for 14mm, quite a long ways. The mouthpiece is a bit less resistant than the standard, but not by much.
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[B. Scriver]

Richard,
I am not a fan of the interchangeable components as all that we have seen, have had major discontinuities in important areas. Most that we have seen did not even line up properly, leaving a ridge let's say, in the bore itself where the top meets the backbore. That is like building a massive speed bump in the passing lane on the interstate.

Really though, you totally have to look at the entire mouthpiece, not just one aspect. if you feel that a particular mouthpiece is playing too tight, look at that alpha angle first. Plus, let's throw a little gasoline on the fire...some times if a mouthpiece and horn combination is too OPEN, it can actually feel tight. I had a customer once tell me that he was playing a large bore Bach 72 with a Bach 1 mpc drilled out to #25 and it was too tight. That is bordering on trombone resistance. Once he got something a little more resistant to match his horn, he was good. Sounds backwards but it is true.

If it is too open, often the player will create a false resistance in the throat area in order to have some compression. Then it feels tight and guess what? The player drills out the bore compounding the issue.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com

[Bethmike]

[Andy Cooper]

Just a note on V. Bach handing out reamers for players to enlarge their own mouthpiece throats - pretty sure they were "jeweler's broaches" which are tapered - not straight like a drill bit size reamer. So when the mouthpiece is enlarged by inserting the broach in the leadpipe end of the mouthpiece - there is no lengthening of the cylindrical portion - if any - of the throat.

I don't know what that would do - but the result would be different from creating a longer cylindrical throat.

[JVL]

Totally agree with what Brian Scriver said about tight feeling due to too much openess.
Bobby Shew explains it to you when he tweaks, and so does a tech friend of mine, that tweaks when necessary the 3rd valve pipe in order to tighten it and give you a more free-blowing feeling

[Untame]

[lakejw]

Tpt_Guy, thanks for linking that booklet! This should be given to every college freshman in music school.

Does anyone have or know of a similar document for trumpet design?

JL
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[kurth83]

When I studied under Claude Gordon he had us all on 20 throats AFAIK (I know some of his earlier mouthpiece designs were a 22 throat though).

In an amazing coincidence my high-school teacher had me on a Schilke 15B drilled out to a 20 throat. I only discovered this recently (45 years later) when I bought my own drill bits during my recent (and first ever) mouthpiece safari. That piece had a rich sound when played soft, but still went pretty bright when pushed because of the shallow cup. No problems moving a lot of air through it and the shallow cup gave nice support.

It explains why mouthpieces with smaller throats don't feel right to me as I've never really known anything different. I did try many throat sizes during the safari and I can testify that what that article said is true, and state it in simpler terms: Larger throats darken the mouthpiece a bit and open it up, which makes it easier to play louder/richer/fuller. It takes more air support and development to play such a piece however.

Claude claimed that more air opened up the high register and generally made trumpet playing easier. All I know is I had the highest range of my life playing on the CG personal. I moved to a larger more symphonic piece later, that was a custom clone of the CG to a larger rim and my range dropped a bit, but the tone was more what I wanted for symphonic work.

Claude had us blowing like our lives depended on it so it balanced out just fine. The CG personal had a smaller rim diameter, a deepish V cup, a 20 throat, and a slightly larger than standard backbore to match.

After my safari I can confirm that the V cup gives more support in the upper registers than a similar depth bowl cup but retains the fuller sound of a deeper cup, so I have learned to love that cup shape. Some of his students could play on a larger rim diameter version of that piece AFAIK (meaning no range drop unlike me). I've had some success with custom pieces in a similar vein, deeper cup, 20 throat, and various rim sizes, ut struggled to find the V cup, as most only offer more of a bowl cup shape. I had some failures which were mostly related to deep bowl cups and overly large backbores.

Recently I discovered Jim R New mouthpieces, and he offers a CG-style cup - the D cup I think - and selectable throat size. Going to order some soon to experiment. I've had a hard time finding CG cup shapes so that's why it's such a good find for me.

[Untame]

I've printed a dozen or so in the last few weeks and found 20 throat to be my ideal (17.5mm wide, 15mm deep).

Curry Brass Band is close at 21, bit his VC is 18, IIRC.
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