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Embouchure Change Questions


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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went through an embouchure change at the start of 11th grade right after starting with Claude Gordon. Right after my first lesson I looked at his 7 items and thought “I’m not going to pay all this money and not follow everything. My mouthpiece is ¼ top lip and it needs to be at least ⅔ top lip. If this doesn’t work it better not be because I didn’t follow directions.” Immediately after the lesson without telling Claude I just put it on my top lip and didn’t look back. I immediately lost my ability to get to anything above a G on the staff. I had doubts. A couple weeks into it I couldn’t say no to our hot sexy temporary high school band director about playing an opening fanfare on herald trumpet for our home coming game. I screwed-up so bad people laughed. But, there was no turning back. I couldn’t find the old embouchure and that was a good thing.

Claude looked at me at the next lesson asked if my embouchure had been different. He hadn’t told me to do it but thought it was good I did. We had to adjust the routines and he wrote some hand written flexibility and interval material to supplement the other books we were working through.

3 months into it I was back around a High C much more comfortable and by 9 months I had an easy High F like never before. Don’t get frustrated or scared. Don’t commit to something that could embarrass you or give you more fear issues later. I still think back to that home coming game and can remember it like it was today. I didn’t go to the dances but my friends told me they replayed it at the dance and people laughed again. By the next year I played some other stuff and nobody laughed again.

There’s some good advice above. Fear is a bad thing as a trumpet player or life in general. Communicate with your teacher and work with him.

I too play to the side I believe because a tooth that stuck out more and then was broken and crowned a year before starting with Claude too. About two years ago I had it redone after 35 years and it now looks much more normal and feels better. I worked with a local cosmetic dentist that played trumpet in college and his son took lessons with me. I trust him and it worked great. I believe my recent dental change wasn’t a big deal at all because my embouchure was much more correct with more too lip to vibrate.

Off to one side is not a big deal compared to not having enough top lip in the mouthpiece or doing some other weird stuff that dampens the vibration. I also worked out of the lower lip rolled in or tucked in thing but that was indirectly through the practice routines Claude Gordon gave. I will never forget playing the Colin Advanced Lio Flexibility Studies one morning before college jazz band and thinking how the High D in #9 felt as relaxing as a low C. I called Claude and asked what he was doing to me and told him how I noticed my lower wasn’t doing the same thing. He said he knew.

Flexibility studies within your own abilities can make the process come together. Be patient.

Jeff
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PMonteiro
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Joined: 29 Jul 2020
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Location: Hudson Valley

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Embouchure Change Questions Reply with quote

throckmorton42 wrote:
hi y'all! so I just started an embouchure change with a new teacher almost 2 months ago. I've been playing with a weird embouchure (off to the side & upper lip sticks a little out of the mouthpiece) for 8 years; it worked pretty well when it could work (got me into Tanglewood, Brevard, Interlochen, etc.) but I noticed I was making a lot less progress and my playing was a lot more inconsistent. People kept telling me to change it since like 7th grade, so I'm finally doing it now that I'm finally done with all my auditions and performances (temporarily forgetting my virtual band and orchestra obligations for now lmao)

The problem is, I'm almost 2 months in and I'm as inconsistent on this new embouchure as I am on the old. Some days it feels like I'm progressing, but others not so much. I have no idea if this new embouchure will work for me because I do have a "weirder" oral structure, and I'm at the point where neither embouchure works well enough. I was wondering if anyone here could share their experiences with embouchure changes. I'm just feeling very ambivalent about the change right now and wondering if it will be worth it in the long run. Thanks so much!


I will preface this by saying my experience may not necessarily be applicable to yours, I'm not an embouchure expert, and it's hard to diagnose things over an online forum.

This sounds a lot like my current embouchure, which is a bit off to the side and in the red of my upper lip. Like you, I feel that I have a "weird" lip structure. I actually started out with a perfectly centered embouchure, but naturally migrated to my current setup which tells me it's what my facial structure naturally wants to do. I'm probably not good enough to win a major orchestral audition or play lead professionally, but I play at a reasonably high level in the situations I'm involved in.

Give it time. Two months is almost insignificant in the timeline of trumpet development, especially when you've been doing something differently for 8 years. Your old embouchure may work best for your unique facial structure, or you may just need more time to make your new one work. Definitely continue to work with your teacher to identify which approach will work the best.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience lately is showing me that the 2/3 top lip is not for everyone. M now just trying to keep the lips between the teeth to keep them vibrating. I played for years successfully in the small creek I lived in but couldn’t play lead books longer than an hour because 2/3 upper lip in mp tends to lead to more pressure on the surface you need to vibrate. I’ve found that a lower lip placement has helped me to quit cutting out at range, this also aligns the corners to bring tension to the lips. I’m real new to this approach but my lip is naturally below edge of top teeth and jaw forward is easy as well. If you are looking for range this approach is working as no other. Rage has expanded greatly but control has not. Just reading the S/C text will or did to me, make some aspects of playing high very clear. He initial results are fast hen you finally get the set, control above your old rangeWILL not be. For instance I may be trying from a hi e to g and go to a softer (and weaker) dhc instead. When doing arpeggios from g up as fast as I can sometimes hit notes well above dhc. Certainly not anything that will play in Hoboken. But I have only been playing with this 6 wks. and only within last 3 weeks got the recommended aperture setting close. I’ve got hi hopes, but read what you can about it if only to get a very detailed nderstanding of why 2/3 upper is bad emb. advice. My opinion coming from a rank ameture. Based on my experience so far. Please don’t flame me opinions are like a@@holes - everyone has at least one.
Rod
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blownchops
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Joined: 15 Apr 2020
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contrary to a lot of other replies, if your new embouchure/mouthpiece change isn't working, why keep it?

My embouchure is pretty nonstandard. When I got to college my prof and I tried to change it and it was a miserable time. I went back to my old embouchure and doubled my practice time. Things worked out okay, I still play pretty well (even through band director chops) and the trumpet makes me a decent portion of my income. Just because an embouchure is not "textbook" does not make it wrong for you.


Now what confuses me is that it seems like you selected this professor so that they could change your setup. If so, why post for second opinions on here? Trust your professor over internet message boards. You have no idea if the next poster on this forum will be a bored high schooler that has no idea what they are talking about or Phil Smith. If your handpicked for an embouchure change professor tells you to make the changes, make them. If you feel like they are not helping, bring it up to your prof. If you still feel unsatisfied, find a new teacher.


For what it is worth, I also have had tons of people tell me that I needed to change my embouchure. I also play better than most of the people that have told me to change. I have played for and taken lessons with phenomenal educators and professional players that have said "if it works for you, it works for you."
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello throckmorton42,
It is sad to me to hear people offering specific advice on where to place the mpc, how the lips flap, etc., when these things are so individual. There is no one way...in fact, Rheinhardt identified a number of specific embouchure types. I have a different experience and a different opinion of embouchure change...I think a good change should be obvious almost immediately. That was my experience with a Rheinhardt teacher. If improvement is taking forever, I think you are probably changing your embouchure gradually as you practice or you are learning to accommodate to a less than optimum situation.

People play all over their face depending on their dental setup. A good chop doc should be able to look at what you are doing and suggest some workable changes in a lesson or two...at least that was my experience with Dave Wilken (Wilktone.com). I notice in visiting his website to check the address that he is offering a zoom workshop on embouchure and has a section of the website dedicated to "Embouchure 101." You might try looking at that and possibly attending one of Dave's Zoom workshops. He is a great teacher.
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NordicNorm
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Joined: 30 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In high school (more than 4 decades ago), I had a trumpet teacher who was the first French horn player in our local professional symphony (Winnipeg Symphony).

In order to protect his French horn embouchure, he would play the trumpet off to one side, almost to the corner of his mouth. He had a 4 octave range with that embouchure. It looked weird to watch but it worked for him.

There is no one size fits all to an embouchure. Listen to your teacher and find out what works for you.
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