Lionel,
I don't think that any particular mouthpiece design is more or less suited to the Stevens-Costello system. I think it's going to depend on the physiology of the individual player.
I learned S-C while I was playing a Bach 1 1/2B, which is a very large and deep piece.
Over time I found that in the high register I had a lot of non-vibrating lip tissue in the cup that was unsupported and this had implications for my endurance. I transitioned to eventually using a very small diameter piece, a Bach 20C.
I have relatively thin lips and the smaller mouthpiece is what works better for me.
Steve
I also use a much smaller cup than the 1c on s/c training, specifically a shew lead with a 25drill. I can play on bigger pieces but they make me more tired and my tone gets dull. Biggest thing for me is to be able to feel grip.
Rod
Lionel,
I don't think that any particular mouthpiece design is more or less suited to the Stevens-Costello system. I think it's going to depend on the physiology of the individual player.
I learned S-C while I was playing a Bach 1 1/2B, which is a very large and deep piece.
Over time I found that in the high register I had a lot of non-vibrating lip tissue in the cup that was unsupported and this had implications for my endurance. I transitioned to eventually using a very small diameter piece, a Bach 20C.
I have relatively thin lips and the smaller mouthpiece is what works better for me.
Steve
I have a lot of respect for Dr Dave. It is quite possible that fifty years from now a far greater number of trumpet players will turn to mouthpieces that aren't only asymmetric but aren't even circular in their general design.
During the coming week I'm going to work on modifying my current (and V strange mouthpiece!) to a more oval shape. Putting together a piece that as I look at it will tend to look like an upside down pear. As I found out last year that I needed a very large inner rim dimension in order to pull off the Stevens forward jaw setting. However since my upper lip is the only truly vibrating portion of my lips? I found no need to continue this HUGE rim design all the way around the piece. Currently, my rim is about .700 of an inch. This is almost ''trombone territory'' in the inner rim dimension.
Our friend Lynch essentially taught us that the lower lip plays no role at all within the cup of the mouthpiece. He did this when he basically filled in the ''south'' section of the cup with solid metal. And as he invented that piece he was basically saying that removing the lower lip from the cup somehow benefits the upper register production. I don't have an explanation that I feel comfortable sharing as to WHY the filled in section on the Lynch piece seems to help many players. And perhaps I don't really need to understand the physics, but I want to.
Science and physics have helped me greatly on the trumpet. Especially during my comeback from that devastating dental injury from 2018. So by understanding as much as I can perhaps I can eventually help others.
We should be careful about excessive analysis however. As currently one of my Stevens-Costello students is improving quite well but without him actually reading the book all that much. My natural tendency is to explain things. However excessive explanations can sometimes be a waste of time with such players. The old adage ''If it ain't broke? Don't fix it'. is important to remember. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3297 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:05 am Post subject:
Lionel wrote:
...
Our friend Lynch essentially taught us that the lower lip plays no role at all within the cup of the mouthpiece. He did this when he basically filled in the ''south'' section of the cup with solid metal. And as he invented that piece he was basically saying that removing the lower lip from the cup somehow benefits the upper register production. I don't have an explanation that I feel comfortable sharing as to WHY the filled in section on the Lynch piece seems to help many players. And perhaps I don't really need to understand the physics, but I want to. ...
--------------------------------------
Just because some people can successfully use the 'Lynch style' rim does not mean that the lower lip doesn't provide some vibration function when using a typical round rim.
My guess is that the 'Lynch' rim assists its users by providing a more comfortable surface to absorb rim pressure that is placed on the low lip. And perhaps (for them) it helps direct the air flow in a useful direction on/through the aperture opening. It's unclear if that style rim would be an advantage to typical players, or if it is a 'fix' for players who have 'lower lip trouble' when using a round rim.
The goal is to have 'lip function' over a wide range of pitches - use whatever rim style makes that possible. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
...
Our friend Lynch essentially taught us that the lower lip plays no role at all within the cup of the mouthpiece. He did this when he basically filled in the ''south'' section of the cup with solid metal. And as he invented that piece he was basically saying that removing the lower lip from the cup somehow benefits the upper register production. I don't have an explanation that I feel comfortable sharing as to WHY the filled in section on the Lynch piece seems to help many players. And perhaps I don't really need to understand the physics, but I want to. ...
--------------------------------------
Just because some people can successfully use the 'Lynch style' rim does not mean that the lower lip doesn't provide some vibration function when using a typical round rim.
My guess is that the 'Lynch' rim assists its users by providing a more comfortable surface to absorb rim pressure that is placed on the low lip. And perhaps (for them) it helps direct the air flow in a useful direction on/through the aperture opening. It's unclear if that style rim would be an advantage to typical players, or if it is a 'fix' for players who have 'lower lip trouble' when using a round rim.
The goal is to have 'lip function' over a wide range of pitches - use whatever rim style makes that possible.
We're probably closer to agreement than it appears. Although there certainly is concrete proof that the lower lip does not act as an actual reed at all. It may FEEL like it does but this is not so. And I can prove it easily. So I can't agree with you there. The vibration is always the job of the much more supple and elastic upper lip. This is basic stuff and absolutely irrefutable as I will explain.
The proof? If indeed both lips were vibrating simultaneously, How would the brass player ever get them both in tune with each other? Example,
It is possible to get both lips vibrating but indeed the tune will be so awful that it becomes comical. Case in point: About a dozen years ago I was working on my doubling chops and took a paid gig as the first trombonist in a local orchestra where I'd previously been a trumpet player. (actually, I took the T-bone part mostly to get away from the second trumpet player whose unprofessional vibrato used to drive me insane!) lol.
I covered the 1st trombone part pretty well if I do say so much myself. And yet towards the end of the performance, I was getting pretty tired. Regardless I still wanted to continue contributing because the audience was really into us. So near the ending chorus of a familiar show tune, I decided to draw on my energy reserves and really ''HIT IT'' with some loud, most animated playing.
To my horror, I produced a terrible sound out of the end of the bell! This the dreaded ''wolf tone''. My upper lip had become swollen and stiff. It needed rest. But as it was too tired to vibrate very well? Instead a portion of my lower did start to vibrate. This never would happen normally because my upper lip would always produce the vibration once I gave it some air support. Meanwhile, I would never normally blow so hard as to actually force my lower lip to vibrate. EXCEPT at this time I had REALLY given the horn as much energy as I was capable of. And instead of just getting my upper lip to resonate?
My lower lip did too. Both lips were actually vibrating because I'd really ''gunned the engine'' with all the air support that I was capable of. And I'm telling you the result was worse than a Bull Moose roaring as he is chasing a cow in heat. The audience actually laughed! Hell I did too!! I also started playing much softer and the gig was over a few seconds later. No harm done.
Wolf tones are pretty common on lower brass instruments and perhaps it can happen to a few trumpet players who are kinda new to the instrument.
was due to me putting excess wind power into the embouchure. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Lionel,
I don't think that any particular mouthpiece design is more or less suited to the Stevens-Costello system. I think it's going to depend on the physiology of the individual player.
I learned S-C while I was playing a Bach 1 1/2B, which is a very large and deep piece.
Over time I found that in the high register I had a lot of non-vibrating lip tissue in the cup that was unsupported and this had implications for my endurance. I transitioned to eventually using a very small diameter piece, a Bach 20C.
I have relatively thin lips and the smaller mouthpiece is what works better for me.
Steve
I have a lot of respect for Dr Dave. It is quite possible that fifty years from now a far greater number of trumpet players will turn to mouthpieces that aren't only asymmetric but aren't even circular in their general design.
During the coming week I'm going to work on modifying my current (and V strange mouthpiece!) to a more oval shape. Putting together a piece that as I look at it will tend to look like an upside down pear. As I found out last year that I needed a very large inner rim dimension in order to pull off the Stevens forward jaw setting. However since my upper lip is the only truly vibrating portion of my lips? I found no need to continue this HUGE rim design all the way around the piece. Currently, my rim is about .700 of an inch. This is almost ''trombone territory'' in the inner rim dimension.
Our friend Lynch essentially taught us that the lower lip plays no role at all within the cup of the mouthpiece. He did this when he basically filled in the ''south'' section of the cup with solid metal. And as he invented that piece he was basically saying that removing the lower lip from the cup somehow benefits the upper register production. I don't have an explanation that I feel comfortable sharing as to WHY the filled in section on the Lynch piece seems to help many players. And perhaps I don't really need to understand the physics, but I want to.
Science and physics have helped me greatly on the trumpet. Especially during my comeback from that devastating dental injury from 2018. So by understanding as much as I can perhaps I can eventually help others.
We should be careful about excessive analysis however. As currently one of my Stevens-Costello students is improving quite well but without him actually reading the book all that much. My natural tendency is to explain things. However excessive explanations can sometimes be a waste of time with such players. The old adage ''If it ain't broke? Don't fix it'. is important to remember.
As I’ve written to you in PM simply applying the two settings: lip and teeth properly were all I needed to see some really good improvement. I kind of followed the directions as in the book and used a mirror to make sure i was applying the instructions correctly. Luckily I found the directions for the settings comfortable and doable, when in the setting I found I was simply using too much top lip (2/3) and adjusted it to the original Steven’s recommendation of (2/3) bottom and saw immediate improvement in range and did not experience the reported limits in lower range, some but not much. I think my Shew lead allows me to do this effeciently, I can’t understand how the wide cup could assist you as you would have to have a lot of non red meat in the cup. This to me would require a lot of strength that may not be necessary in a smaller cup? Can you explain? Send me a PM if you want. I have left a message 304 area code.
Rod
Joined: 28 Dec 2015 Posts: 80 Location: Orange County, California
Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:12 pm Post subject:
Lionel wrote:
Although there certainly is concrete proof that the lower lip does not act as an actual reed at all.
I do not think that this is true. The bottom lip is not a rigid structure with only the top lip vibrating. both lips are involved in opening and closing the aperture at the frequency of the note being played.
While the top lip dominates, it is not accurate to state the bottom lip plays no role at all.
Joined: 28 Dec 2015 Posts: 80 Location: Orange County, California
Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:18 pm Post subject:
Rod Haney wrote:
I found I was simply using too much top lip (2/3) and adjusted it to the original Steven’s recommendation of (2/3) bottom and saw immediate improvement in range and did not experience the reported limits in lower range, some but not much.
Rod Haney,
Prior to my adoption of the Stevens-Costello method I played with very little upper lip in the cup. The edge of the rim was in the red. I needed to adjust to put more top lip in. The proper ratio for me seems to be right about 50/50.
I found I was simply using too much top lip (2/3) and adjusted it to the original Steven’s recommendation of (2/3) bottom and saw immediate improvement in range and did not experience the reported limits in lower range, some but not much.
Rod Haney,
Prior to my adoption of the Stevens-Costello method I played with very little upper lip in the cup. The edge of the rim was in the red. I needed to adjust to put more top lip in. The proper ratio for me seems to be right about 50/50.
Steve
Could it be my top lip is more rolled into the teeth? I’m pretty early into this but it feels good and works. I will say my upper lip is below my bottom teeth in closed relaxed position tho. That may also be a reason for my lower setting being effective for me. Any info you have is of interest to me, send me a PM if you wish. No part of upper/ lower rim is on red.
Thanks,
Rod
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3297 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:16 am Post subject:
Lionel wrote:
...
The proof? If indeed both lips were vibrating simultaneously, How would the brass player ever get them both in tune with each other? ...
-----------------------------------------------
That's an interesting question - and likely the answer involves both physics and physiology. I DON'T know the answer, this is my speculation (and YES other opinions or 'knowledge-based info' would be appreciated, because I am interested in the 'mechanics' of how the sound is produced, and how the pitch is controlled).
My speculations -
1) The synchronization of upper and lower lip movement is mainly achieved through the sound wave 'back pressure' on the lips.
The player needs to adjust the 'general lip flexibility' to enable movement at approximately the frequency of the desired resonance (the pitch/note/valve combination). The lip flexibility does not have to be precisely controlled to enable vibration at ONLY the desired frequency - perhaps within a range of perhaps +/- 30 cents (just a guess) might be adequate.
When the player causes air flow through the aperture the lips start to move, and very quickly the back pressure from the internal standing wave exerts back pressure onto the lips - and that back pressure assists and regulates the lip closing and synchronized lip movement.
2) The skill of the player controls how well the 'general lip flexibility' is adjusted to the desired note. If the adjustment is good, then the proper note will be played. If the adjustment is not so good, then another note might be produced, or a 'clam' or 'crack' will happen. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
When the player causes air flow through the aperture the lips start to move,
The player applies air pressure first. When the air pressure is greater in the oral space than in the mp cup the air pressure will push the lips outward and the opening occurs. The air THEN will flow into the mp cup and the flowing pressurized air then gives additional energy to the reflected standing wave cycle as the pressure rises in the mp cup. When the pressure in the mp cup reaches the oral space pressure the lip aperture will close due to elasticity. And the cycle repeats.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3297 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:32 am Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
... When the pressure in the mp cup reaches the oral space pressure the lip aperture will close due to elasticity. And the cycle repeats.
Both lips are involved in the pulsation cycle.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Do the first pulsations occur BEFORE the reflected standing wave is established?
I don't understand your complete view of what happens AFTER the standing wave is established. Is there 'back pressure' (additional pressure in the mpc cup) that is caused by the standing wave that applies a force on the lips to assist their closing? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 28 Dec 2015 Posts: 80 Location: Orange County, California
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:34 pm Post subject:
Jay,
The standing wave is a pressure wave that oscillates back and forth in the tube at the speed of sound. As an analogy you can think of it sort of like an accordion with one end fixed. Once the moving end reaches the limit of its movement it bounces back to it's starting point.
The first pulse out of the lips starts it. The closed end (lips) is the high pressure side. The pulse of pressure will move through the horn until it reaches the open end of the pipe where the pressure drops to zero(well, atmospheric pressure). This causes the pressure wave to reflect back. This point is out toward the bell and is in a slightly different spot for each note. The pressure bouncing back is what causes the lips to close again.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3297 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:30 am Post subject:
SteveDurand wrote:
... The pressure bouncing back is what causes the lips to close again. ...
--------------------------------------------------
I suspect the closing is also dependent on the lip 'condition', as mentioned below. There might be a 'feedback loop' that enables the player to make very quick lip adjustment to synchronize the lips with the pressure from the standing wave.
kalijah wrote:
... When the pressure in the mp cup reaches the oral space pressure the lip aperture will close due to elasticity. And the cycle repeats. ...
_________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 28 Dec 2015 Posts: 80 Location: Orange County, California
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:32 am Post subject:
Yes, the elasticity of the lips also helps them to close again. Kalijah already covered that.
You asked if there was 'backpressure" caused by the standing wave. that's what I was addressing.
Related to the OP. the bounce back of the wave no longer exists once you get up around a G over high C so at that point it is only the elasticity of the lips that forces them closed again.
There might be a 'feedback loop' that enables the player to make very quick lip adjustment to synchronize the lips with the pressure from the standing wave.
No adjustment is required. The lips need simply be set for the sustained pitch.
The initial burst of air pressure on an attack is an abrupt change of air pressure in the cup from zero (relative to ambient) to the oral pressure (or just below that). This approximates a unit step function. The lip aperture will "ring" at the frequency it is set for but will not be "fed" on each cycle until the reflected wave returns to the cup.
The impulse (abrupt pressure "step") will ring at multiple resonant mode frequencies while non resonant will transmit out upon reaching the bell. The resonance that matches the aperture setting will then feed the "ringing" of the aperture. It takes a few cycles for full steady state tone to be achieved. Even on the most abrupt attack.
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:26 am Post subject:
I've been sitting this one out, and have refrained from adding my 2 cents until now. The one thing I didn't see, was how any of these players described how they fixed this problem for themselves . There has been a lot of suggestions , but no none said this what they did to slot D above DHC.
It's not your mouthpiece, not the gap, not your trumpet , or any hardware, not your embouchure. If you can play DHC and E above, your embouchure is working. As you play higher the distance between the notes, the intervals (shrink) get closer. In that range the distance between DCH and the D is almost non existent. I had to learn to not over tense, but to relax for the D. This took some time and practice ,but once I learned where that note was for me, I no longer had a problem with it.
I have no problem with D over DHC because I never play it at all. It is completely irrelevant to what I do play. I never heard Clifford play it even once. _________________ HERMOKIWI
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:43 am Post subject: not
Quote:
I have no problem with D over DHC because I never play it at all. It is completely irrelevant to what I do play. I never heard Clifford play it even once.
I've heard Maynard, Wayne, Roger and many others just nail the DHD and it sounds incredible. And I'm sure it's not everyone's cup of tea. _________________ Too Soon Oldt, Too Late Schmart
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3297 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
... but once I learned where that note was for me, I no longer had a problem with it.
----------------------------------------------
Yes, once you can obtain the basic 'lip posture' for those high notes, and have the air pressure to activate your lip vibrations, the BIG struggle is to fine-tune the lip posture to get the DESIRED note. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3, 4Next
Page 3 of 4
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
