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ebolton Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2021 Posts: 123 Location: New Hampshire, USA
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:50 pm Post subject: Coordination between fingers and face |
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I'm a long term comeback player, and I didn't play great the first time.
I've often noticed when trying to play now I can tongue the rhythm of music I'm reading, and I can also play the notes as long as I don't try to tongue them.
I don't remember having difficulty coordinating like this before, but it has been a very long time...
My question to actual player and teachers here: is this something that gets better with more practice in general, or is there some specific elementary exercise that would help me with this.
TIA _________________ -Ed |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Coordination between fingers and face |
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ebolton wrote: | I'm a long term comeback player, and I didn't play great the first time.
I've often noticed when trying to play now I can tongue the rhythm of music I'm reading, and I can also play the notes as long as I don't try to tongue them.
I don't remember having difficulty coordinating like this before, but it has been a very long time...
My question to actual player and teachers here: is this something that gets better with more practice in general, or is there some specific elementary exercise that would help me with this.
TIA | Hey ebolton, have you ever done any double tonguing? I find that practicing scales using double tonguing is so good for training my fingers to be accurate. It helps with synchronization across all articulations. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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I had a similar issue with my comeback too. It surprised and frustrated me as I never had to think about that in my many years of playing before my layoff.
I worked on scales and arpeggios starting slow and upping the speed focusing on the timing and coordination to overcome it. But it didn’t come back in an instant. |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2037 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | is this something that gets better with more practice in general |
Yes, it will get better if you continue to practice, but perhaps not as quickly as you'd like, depending on how and what you practice. Are you taking lessons? If so, discuss this with your teacher. He/she can recommend specific exercises and techniques to help you with this. If you are not taking lessons, give some thought to finding a teacher.
If that is not possible, you could try practicing the Arban first studies, studies on syncopation, scale studies, etc. Do so with a with a metronome, and play those studies slowly, cleanly and in strict time. That can help to build the coordination between your tongue and fingers.
Good luck! |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1775
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:01 am Post subject: |
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You've figured out the primary reason for practice: coordination between what is in the brain and what happens to the body as a result.
One thing that might help is to be more deliberate with the fingers. It used to be popular to say "slam the valves" and there was a lot of merit to it. Also lift the fingers off the valves deliberately.
Play with a metronome. Sometimes we are "close" to in time, but externalizing it and being exact helps coordinate the system.
Playing ANYTHING extremely well (therefore close to the extremely easy part of the specturm) will help you get you there quicker. |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:31 am Post subject: |
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Welcome back, Ed. You didn't say how old you were.
Let me tell you, age can make a big difference. I made a comeback at 79 after a 50 year hiatus. I will soon be 85 and playing fast is no cinch. Some fast passages, especially if they are short chromatic runs, are so hard that the only way I can play them is if I memorize them. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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ebolton Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2021 Posts: 123 Location: New Hampshire, USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. Some good feedback here. In no particular order:
GeorgeB, I'm 63. Clearly the neurons don't connect as fast and durably as they once did.
Jaw04, double tonguing at this point seems pretty far-fetched to me. I think making single tonguing accurate and effective is the near-term priority.
abontrumpet, some very good ideas there. Doing slow easy stuff well and progressively cranking it up sounds like a good strategy. I've got the slam-the-valves thing down. I keep my pinky out of the ring and my fingers off the buttons.
Dayton, no teacher yet but I will engage one eventually. My past experience with teachers was a little sketchy, and kind of turned me off a bit. No offense to all of you teachers who are clearly helping me here.
LittleRusty, that's my approach at the moment. Doing a lot of scales and arpeggios, hoping to train the tongue and fingers to work with less input from the brain.
Thanks again, all! _________________ -Ed |
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AlphaWhiskey New Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2018 Posts: 1
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Coordination between fingers and face |
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ebolton wrote: | I'm a long term comeback player, and I didn't play great the first time.
I've often noticed when trying to play now I can tongue the rhythm of music I'm reading, and I can also play the notes as long as I don't try to tongue them.
I don't remember having difficulty coordinating like this before, but it has been a very long time...
My question to actual player and teachers here: is this something that gets better with more practice in general, or is there some specific elementary exercise that would help me with this.
TIA |
Coordinating air, tongue, and fingers is something pros work on daily. This is the most important part of playing trumpet. I would suggest starting with "poo" attacks. Lips together, air starts sound as you create the syllable "poo." Work this chromatically starting on middle C expanding up and down. C, C#, B, D, Bb, Eb, etc.... Set a metronome to 80bpm or so and maintain a steady tempo of 4/4 time playing only the first quarter as a poo attack, resting the remaining three before moving on to the next note (repeat current note if you didn't like the result). Next, the three main syllables for articulation that I teach are Du, Da, Ta, Te, and Tu. Repeat the same exercise expanding up/down, or simply use scales. Pick a pattern such as, Poo, Du... Poo, Tu... Poo, Ta. Always starting with poo and initiating the sound with air instead of the tongue. Do the pattern air only before playing. Try to transfer the feeling of uninhibited air to the trumpet when you play. Long explanation... hope this helps give you some ideas at least! Happy Practicing! |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes the simple solutions are best.
Can’t coordinate your fingers and tongue? Practice THAT. Just go slowly, doing something easy, like a scale, or a slow melody. Search out where you get stuck, and focus on that area of pace, or interval, etc.
With time it will get easier.
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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My recommendation would be to work on Clarke Technical studies for a least a little while each time you play. It would be a huge help if you could sit with an experienced player or teacher for a time to show you how best to approach them and to give you a tangible and audible goal. Nothing beats an in-person good example. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Its really hard now after a 50 year layoff to read music as I always memorized rhythms to start with, but using a metronome and starting slow seems to help me. I have to really concentrate on playing the full note - a lot. I don’t remember this in school but then again there is a good bit I don’t remember from those days.
Rod |
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