• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Conn 38B valve caps



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
tom pennell
Regular Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2016
Posts: 56
Location: Melbourne Australia

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 10:04 pm    Post subject: Conn 38B valve caps Reply with quote

I have a 38B Conni, serial number 624xxx, dating it to 1956/57. My question relates to the valve caps. My caps have the recessed "channel" intended to take felts. Photos on Connloyalist show the early models as having a different cap with no provision for felts,as introduced on later models. The early model caps appear to have a collar, mine does not, just the recess into which the felt rests. The buttons on mine are of the earlier model, quite different to the later model. My question is, does the inclusion of the felts on what appear to be the later model caps compromise the valve stroke? I have removed the felts so the button now sits flush with the top of the cap, albeit with some noise! I suspect the valve caps have been changed at some point. Should I be concerned? Regards Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hibidogrulez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2020
Posts: 916
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Conn 38B valve caps Reply with quote

tom pennell wrote:
My question is, does the inclusion of the felts on what appear to be the later model caps compromise the valve stroke?

Not sure about the stroke, but it can mess with the valve alignment. If there are no felts, the valve can go slightly deeper than with felts. This may cause it to misalign with the tubing, which at best will only add resistance, but can also compromise tone and even intonation. All of this applies to a lesser degree to metal caps vs. caps with a felt insert of the same thickness, as felt compresses and metal does not, and from what I've read millimeters matter for valves.

I'm no expert on valves, but there are dozens of stories on TH about 'precision valve alignments' so I imagine it could potentially have a significant impact on your playing. Last year, I had an old peashooter stencil trumpet that used corks rather than felts, but when I took the valves apart to clean them, the corks disintegrated and the valves went both further up and farther in. That made for some serious intonation problems that only went away when I added some felts as replacement.

Then again, for you it may have no impact at all.
_________________
Enthusiastic amateur with good intentions. My personal experiences may not match yours. Value my posts as you see fit.

Plays an Olds Recording with AR Resonance mouthpiece(s)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2499
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your horn seems to have the wrong valve caps. That can be a problem because in fact there are two different systems. On the old ones the collar of the valve cap stops the (old style) valve button on a soft ring inside the valve button. In the more modern system the valve botton is stopped by the outside of the valve button on the felt ring in the valve cap. You seem to have mixed systems. If that's creating a problem with the alignment of the valves is not sure. I don't think it's a good idea to remove the felts from the valve caps. In the old system, the button is stopped inside, the outside will not touch the valve cap. So there is some space left which can be enough to make up for the difference in thickness between the old and new buttons (in fact the old Conn buttons differ the most in thickness on the top of the button, not on the downside). I only own old school Conn horns so I am not sure how much the thickness of the different valve caps differ. Still I suppose that if you put the felts back on the alignment of the valves will not be that far off. You can control that by taking out the second valve slide, depress the valve and then you can judge the alignment. If necessary you can correct the alignment with thicker or thinner felts in the caps. But the real deal is to get the original caps with the collar.

Last edited by delano on Mon May 03, 2021 4:54 am; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stumac
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 667
Location: Flinders, Australia

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,
put it back how it was, it needs the felts in the caps to get correct alignment, I checked it when I fitted new valve springs.
Regards, Stuart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dale Proctor
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9068
Location: Heart of Dixie

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s pretty easy to check the valve port alignment on the downward stroke. Just remove the valve slide and look down the tubing toward the valve. Depress the valve and see how well the ports line up, and adjust the felt thickness accordingly.

If you have a mixture of caps and buttons from different eras, the only solution could be finding the correct ones, but it’s worth a try to check the downward valve alignment first.
_________________
Olde Towne Brass
www.otbrass.com

Brass Band of Huntsville
www.brassbandofhuntsville.com

"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tom pennell
Regular Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2016
Posts: 56
Location: Melbourne Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for the considered responses. Yes Dale, I did check the port alignment both before and after removing the felts, all seemed O.K. I have taken stumac's sage advice and returned the caps to the condition they were in, again checking the port alignment. In any event, the later style caps and felts make the horn a better looking instrument!
I guess I was just over intellectualising a perceived problem. Regards Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 992
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Conn 38B valve caps Reply with quote

tom pennell wrote:
I have a 38B Conni, serial number 624xxx, dating it to 1956/57. My question relates to the valve caps. My caps have the recessed "channel" intended to take felts. Photos on Connloyalist show the early models as having a different cap with no provision for felts,as introduced on later models. The early model caps appear to have a collar, mine does not, just the recess into which the felt rests. The buttons on mine are of the earlier model, quite different to the later model. My question is, does the inclusion of the felts on what appear to be the later model caps compromise the valve stroke? I have removed the felts so the button now sits flush with the top of the cap, albeit with some noise! I suspect the valve caps have been changed at some point. Should I be concerned? Regards Tom


1.The alignment with your present set up is probably OK. I checked it with my 6B using old caps and a top with no felt. But you can't really play the horn that way with its own built in rhythm section.

2. Easiest solution is put the felts back and replace the finger buttons with the smaller newer ones from the late 50's or 60's. I believe Allied Supply still stocks them (available from your music store) or it might be cheaper to purchase a junk Conn director cornet or trumpet with the newer (60's) correct valve buttons. These buttons use no corks or felts - just the felt in the top cap. (Be sure you get one made in USA not Japan)

2. Keep your early finger buttons and replace the top caps. Again, look for an older junker Conn Director with the correct valve caps on shopgoodwill.com. You can often get a "parts" only cornet for under $40 including shipping.

3. King 600 finger buttons will also work with the newer Conn tops - though it might take thicker top cap felts or set screws in the valve stems. They are close.

3. Custom buttons or top caps from Harrelson.


Odds and ends:

You can use the 60's finger buttons with the early top caps if you add cork and felt to the finger buttons.

The newer top caps are much heavier that the old ones. If you have extras they work just fine as heavy bottom valve caps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group