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ctownj30 Regular Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2015 Posts: 12
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: Trombone mouthpiece for trumpet player |
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I'm a trumpet player but picked up a valve trombone to play with.
Is there any sort/size of trombone mouthpiece I could get to make going back and forth between instruments a bit easier/less of a shock to the lips?
If I had to describe the what I'm experiencing - I don't have the muscle form to prevent all that lip from squishing into the 'bone mouthpiece, so I get tired right away.
Not looking for perfect sound and don't care enough to "develop" trombone chops - just want to be able to do the occasional tune at a jazz jam on the trombone instead w/o blowing an o-ring.
Any ideas? |
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thsd Regular Member
Joined: 21 Aug 2019 Posts: 27 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Al Cass used to make a series of doubling mouthpieces, and I used one to play the trombone part in some musicals on a baritone using my trumpet embouchure. You may have to dig a little bit, but there are probably some floating around. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2052 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I picked up the bass trumpet about 4 years ago and enjoy it very much. I use a smaller tenor trombone mouthpiece with ca. 24 mm inner diameter. Think Bach 12C (which I also have but don’t like too much because of the quite sharp inner rim).
The pieces I really like are Vintage eBay finds, so not sure if you can find them easily: Couesnon 3 and Giardinelli 6D.
I’d be very interested in trying the AR Resonance, Stork, and Griego pieces for two reasons: Griego and Stork offer diameters I might like and if the AR trombone pieces are anywhere near their trumpet pieces, they are great.
Getting used to the larger diameter happens in no time, so don’t worry. I now easily (for an amateur) switch between trumpet, flugel, and bass trumpet. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Matt K Regular Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2015 Posts: 14
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:45 am Post subject: |
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There tends to be a lot more variety of rim sizes on the trombone than there is on trumpet. On tenor trombone, you'll commonly find people playing from .96" inner diameter all the way through 1.08". For your use case, jazz, a lot of players are between .96 and 1.00" inner diameter (e.g. Bach 11C through 6.5AL). It really depends on your physiology what works best though. Personally, I use one of Doug Elliott's 104N rims, which is 1.04", which is actually a popular rim size from my anecdotal observations of others who also play on the same rim as I do.
If you can try pieces out, I suggest giving a variety of rim sizes a try and seeing which one works best for you. Despite Bach's silly description of mouthpieces, a 12C, for example, isn't universally the best for people with "weak lips", just as larger mouthpieces aren't necessarily more difficult to play. And finding the one that fits you best will help switch back and forth. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2052 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, and a lot of the mps can be had for 20 to 50 bucks used so trying out is not much of an issue unless you look for something special. Lots of Yamaha pieces out there, for example. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:02 am Post subject: |
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The Bach 12C (or equivalent) usually comes with student horns. The Bach 6 1/2AL or Schilke 51D are good upgrades from there. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Matt K Regular Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2015 Posts: 14
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Usually Yamaha are either very similar to the Schilkes. The Yamaha 48 that comes with all bajillion YSL354s is sort of similar to the 6.5AL or the Schilke 48.
Bachs are generally wider rimmed than the Schilke/Yamahas. If you find you lack flexibility, give the narrower rimmed variants a try. If you find that things are a little too flexible or the "slots" are a little too "wide" try something a little more wide rimmed.
You might also want to check out the various Facebook marketplaces or trombonechat.com too for used stuff.
Another popular option are the Doug Elliott stuff because it's a 3 part modular system, so you can vary just one aspect of a piece. In the before times, you could go to a convention or meet up with him if he was traveling and try pieces out much in the same way you try glasses out until you get the component that fits you well. But they're on the pricey side of pieces, although he has a pretty good return policy fwiw. |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 688 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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I have played a bit of tenor stuff. Just recently sold my Bach Bass (I call it tenor) trumpet to help my daughter get a new car. I played the 4th trumpet part in Stravinski's "Rite of Spring" back in 1992 on it, with a Bach 12C with the Amarillo Symphony (was a real kick for me to "step out of my comfort zone).
I like the 12C because it makes it sound like a tenor trumpet, not tubby like the larger Euphonium sizes. Read Vincent Bach's description of his design goals in the Bass Trumpet sometime. He was not fond of the "wolf-like tones" he ascribed to most trombones, and I can see that in playing the bass trumpet as part of the trumpet section, rather than a trombone variant. I even have a Bach 22 tenor trombone piece that gets a nice light tone on the tenor trumpet.
Also, the Schilke 51 and Bach 6 1/2 AL really wreck my trumpet chops, particularly since I do a lot of Eb and Pic playing, honestly. I have found for me personally, for a short bit of informal playing, the Kelley polycarbonate 12C easier to go back and forth on. I also still have the Cass Doubler for trombone shank. The cup rim is a bit larger than a regular trumpet mouthpiece, for sure, and the cup is quite deep. You may find at first with that mouthpiece that you sound like a bee in a large barrel, but work on your tone and focus, and it can be used. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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CalicchioMan Veteran Member
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 336 Location: Florida
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:48 pm Post subject: trombone mouthpieces |
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I use the smallest Wedge trombone available.. I'd like it a little smaller. But, it is really good.
Best,
Scott _________________ Yamaha 8310ZII
Yamaha 631G Flugelhorn
Mendini Superbone
Pickett Mouthpieces |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I’ve fiddled a bit with TF (trumpet-flugel) mouthpieces on a tenor trombone and have been surprised how well they did. It’s like playing pedal tones, so it does alter things a bit, but I really didn’t acclimate all with trombone mouthpieces. It’s my guess that some embouchure types adapt to trombone mouthpieces better than others.
Further thoughts on TF pieces for trombone... A Reeves C2J is a bit short for ideal intonation, my Trent Austin TA/TF is a bit long, I’ve been intending to get a Curry TF piece; they’re between a full length mouthpiece (like the TA TF), and the very short Reeves C2J.
A bit of tape on the stem is what I’ve used to adapt the trumpet mouthpiece to a trombone size. A Reeves sleeve #1 is pretty close to a good fit on a tenor trombone and needs just a tiny bit of tape to work. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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JeffM729 Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 442 Location: Parrish, FL
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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The Schilke 40B works well for me, although it favors the upper register. The transition period was very short. |
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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I play a Schilke 40b with my alto valve bone, a Bach 22c ( or the supplied Jupiter 12c) with my tenor valve bone and it is ok.
Small but still trombone mouthpieces. _________________ S’il n’en reste qu’un je serai celui là (Victor Hugo)
Je m’empresse d’en rire de peur d’avoir à en pleurer (Beaumarchais) |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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I used to use a Bach 1 1/4C for my bass trumpet (which had a trombone receiver). It's a little ill fitting but it can be made to work...adequately, not great. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:50 am Post subject: |
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My advice is that there is no reason to look for a trumpet-like trombone mouthpiece. I dinked around with this for some years, but honestly, trombone isn't that hard.
Just get a few trombone mouthpieces and practice. I find that the large mouthpiece is actually good for my trumpet chops, it's like a chop massage. I used a 12C for years, but find a Yamaha 48 or 6 1/2AL to be much more to my liking.
Switching feel odds and terrible for a while. Play through it. Practice switching. Play trombone and then trumpet and then bone again. The trumpet mouthpiece feels like a pin head. Yup. Do it enough and it doesn't. It'll be like a manual transmission - you'll have a trombone setting and a trumpet setting.
There isn't a trombone mouthpiece small enough to feel like a trumpet mouthpiece and there isn't a trumpet mouthpiece large enough to feel like trombone. Don't bother.
I didn't set out to do this, but teaching and switching back and forth did it. I used to have trouble with the woodwinds, too, but haven't for years. Clarinet felt terrible for my trumpet chops, but then it didn't matter. At all.
You probably won't take this advice and keep looking for the "easy" solution. Others have, I did too, for a while. But, if you keep at it, you'll eventually realize that just playing them for what they are will always work best. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Hibidogrulez,
Wow….A little off topic but I also play a German Kuhn & Hoyer alto Eb trumpet with a trumpet receiver. Even a Schilke 24 does not sound right (narrow sound). The best result is with a Bach 9AT mouthpiece (diameter 19 mm) even if the shank does not perfectly fit.
I would be interested to hear how a bass trumpet sounds with a Bach 1 1/4!
But of course, If it is good for you, great 😊 _________________ S’il n’en reste qu’un je serai celui là (Victor Hugo)
Je m’empresse d’en rire de peur d’avoir à en pleurer (Beaumarchais) |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:17 am Post subject: |
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As a former trombone player I have to say that I 100% agree with Crazy Finn.
It is possible to play slide trombone with a trumpet mouthpiece as long as you learn to play with shorter positions than regular. The intonation is all over the place (goes very flat). Same with the valve trombone. 1 + 2 intonates more like 2 + 3 and so on. So you can play as long as you stay above or close to the middle Bflat and only use the first and second valve.
A trombone mouthpiece is much easier to play and is a great massage for your trumpet chops.
But of course do what you want to do. |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:09 am Post subject: |
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Voltrane wrote: | I would be interested to hear how a bass trumpet sounds with a Bach 1 1/4!
But of course, If it is good for you, great 😊 |
No, it sounded terrible...at least compared to when an actual trombone player using a proper mouthpiece played it. Ended up selling the bass trumpet to him...he played it far better than I ever did.
Funny thing though, using a trumpet mouthpiece on a bass trumpet gave me almost the same upper range as I did on my Bb. |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Trombone mouthpiece for trumpet player |
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ctownj30 wrote: | don't care enough to "develop" trombone chops - just want to be able to do the occasional tune at a jazz jam on the trombone
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That won't happen. You need to practice trombone to be good at it.
That said, for me, practicing trombone supported my trumpet chops. Almost a "two for one" deal. The transition issue goes away fast. I recommend the easiest trombone mouthpiece that sounds good. Bach 12C or 11C.
The key is that the different rims make concentric circles and don't interfere with each other. I would play the two side by side, trying to match the phrase with the trombone or vice versa. It's really not a big deal. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 10:25 am Post subject: |
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I once made a trumpet mouthpiece as deep as a bone mouthpiece for a guy. I though it was terrible, and could not play any lower on it than i can go on a trumpet like E on the third space of bass clef. He could do more with it than me so whatever, maybe it is a thing that can work.
I also made a guy a bunch of trumpet mouthpieces as wide as bone mouthpieces, and as shallow as trumpet mouthpieces. He said that it worked for him, and im sure it did. I never actually heard it though. I know that i could not make that work in the slightest, but of course i'm not a bone player _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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