• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

The Most Terrifying Words


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jhatpro
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2002
Posts: 9657
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Irving. Great advice!
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"Life is good except for the side effects."

Horn of the Month
1954 Olds Recording
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tpt_Guy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 878
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:

Right. The "relative info" from the Mahler thread is in response to the notion that transposition was designed for trumpets pitched in those keys, and that Mahler thread pointed out how he freely moved back and forth between the transpositions of F & Bb, where it would never be practical for a player to actually switch between those two insts. So in response to Richard III's statement, the answer would be, "no," and that thread hits on relative support to that response. For those of us who have orchestral training, and not just classical trumpet instruction, we are/were challenged weekly to prepare etudes and orchestral passages that require transposition. For those who've never formally had this training, it can be mind-boggling to figure out where to start...or why transposition is even printed in a book. It has to do with the history of the trumpet (and horn) prior to the invention of valves (1810s) and how music was traditionally written for these two brass instruments. In the brass family, trombones have always been able to play in any key; tuba and euphonium were invented in the 1830s and 1840s, respectively (and even though tubas can be found in different keys, they are not considered transposing instruments...the players just learn "different fingerings!"); but horn and trumpet have a rich history that goes back into antiquity, way before the invention of valves. The reasons for transposition studies has its roots in the history of our instrument and how composers wrote for the instrument. Transposition can be just as much a mystery for players without this training as it is for orchestral players trying to figure out how jazz players ever learn to improv over chord changes...both skill sets require special training and time to learn.


Bass clef instruments are non-transposing as a rule. In college, no one was ever able to tell me why. It isn't limited to low brass. I'm not aware of any exceptions, though I welcome correction on this point. (I used to double on CC tuba in high school because I liked the fingerings better.)

There have been plenty of composers who wrote compositions that were for other pitched instruments and didn't change transposition. For example, Strauss Ein Heldenleben, composed in 1898, is composed for 3 B flat and 2 E flat trumpets, and those transpositions hold throughout the parts. Mahler Symphony No. 1 is written in F transposition throughout. Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6 is in Bb for the first movement, and A for the rest. Tchaikovsky and Strauss were contemporaries of Mahler.

I don't believe that Mahler's compositional tendencies is an example that proves any sort of rule, relative or otherwise, that could be applied to other composers. He composed the way he did, others were either similar or different. Sometimes he seemed to follow Wagner's rule to transpose the parts to avoid accidentals, others he didn't. I would argue that during the Late Romantic, brass instrument construction was evolving and composers were following suit in various ways. I believe composers sometimes composed following tradition and sometimes followed expediency. My opinion is Mahler began to choose expediency later on since, as you point out, it is impossible to change instruments in a few beats of rest and his earlier works had fewer changes in transposition. Other composers, such as Tchaikovsky, followed tradition. Wagner was a whole other animal.

But yes, transposed trumpet and horn parts has its origin in earlier orchestral music before the invention of valves and seeing "in B", "in Es", "in H" meant crooks to change the key.

For this reason, I believe the correct answer to Richard III's question is "yes and no" because playing earlier Baroque and Classical era compositions meant instruments in those keys, but later compositions not so much - trumpet players had chromatic instruments and could learn to transpose. Etudes that work on transposition develop the skill needed to play either parts.

Now we have so many keys of instrument available, we can choose what is easiest to get the job done.
_________________
-Tom Hall-
Bach 37 B flat
Bach 239 C w/Akright Leadpipe
Schilke E3L E flat
Stomvi Piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steve0930
Regular Member


Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello fellow Trumpet players
Lionel wrote
Quote:
So start practicing OPTIMISM first. Even before you begin these transposition exercises.....Accentuate the positive. Eliminate the negative. And? Don't mess with Mister In-Between

Lionel could have been a speechwriter for Churchill;
Quote:
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

So once more unto the breach dear friends, once more!

cheers and stay safe Steve
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg


Last edited by steve0930 on Mon May 03, 2021 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
royjohn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2137
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this discussion about transposition, I have to add a story I was told about William Vacchiano by someone who studied with him at Juilliard. He would bring in his lesson music prepared and start to play. Vacchiano would listen to a few notes and say, "I don't want to hear that, you've practiced that." He would turn to another page and say, "Here, play this in A." My friend would stumble along and feel he'd had a terrible lessons and was at the bottom of the barrel. He soon found out that Vacchiano was doing this to all his students. He was a stickler for learning to transpose because he was told by his teacher to learn to transpose so that he could use the trumpet (Bb, C or whatever) which produced the easiest key and intonation.

One of my friend's fellow students had heard about what Vacchiano did, so he memorized the firsts few pages of all the excerpts to be learned in different keys. At first he was the best student, until Vacchiano evidently figured out what was going on and turned to the back of the excerpt and asked him to play that...which he hadn't practiced.

My friend never told me that Vacchiano gave them any particular hints on how to do the transpositions, so evidently it was sink or swim and learn to pay what's put in front of you in whatever key is needed...He was a great exponent of practicing "off the horn," mentally.
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 791

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
dstpt wrote:

Right. The "relative info" from the Mahler thread is in response to the notion that transposition was designed for trumpets pitched in those keys, and that Mahler thread pointed out how he freely moved back and forth between the transpositions of F & Bb, where it would never be practical for a player to actually switch between those two insts. So in response to Richard III's statement, the answer would be, "no," and that thread hits on relative support to that response. For those of us who have orchestral training, and not just classical trumpet instruction, we are/were challenged weekly to prepare etudes and orchestral passages that require transposition. For those who've never formally had this training, it can be mind-boggling to figure out where to start...or why transposition is even printed in a book. It has to do with the history of the trumpet (and horn) prior to the invention of valves (1810s) and how music was traditionally written for these two brass instruments. In the brass family, trombones have always been able to play in any key; tuba and euphonium were invented in the 1830s and 1840s, respectively (and even though tubas can be found in different keys, they are not considered transposing instruments...the players just learn "different fingerings!"); but horn and trumpet have a rich history that goes back into antiquity, way before the invention of valves. The reasons for transposition studies has its roots in the history of our instrument and how composers wrote for the instrument. Transposition can be just as much a mystery for players without this training as it is for orchestral players trying to figure out how jazz players ever learn to improv over chord changes...both skill sets require special training and time to learn.


Bass clef instruments are non-transposing as a rule. In college, no one was ever able to tell me why. It isn't limited to low brass. I'm not aware of any exceptions, though I welcome correction on this point. (I used to double on CC tuba in high school because I liked the fingerings better.)

There have been plenty of composers who wrote compositions that were for other pitched instruments and didn't change transposition. For example, Strauss Ein Heldenleben, composed in 1898, is composed for 3 B flat and 2 E flat trumpets, and those transpositions hold throughout the parts. Mahler Symphony No. 1 is written in F transposition throughout. Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6 is in Bb for the first movement, and A for the rest. Tchaikovsky and Strauss were contemporaries of Mahler.

I don't believe that Mahler's compositional tendencies is an example that proves any sort of rule, relative or otherwise, that could be applied to other composers. He composed the way he did, others were either similar or different. Sometimes he seemed to follow Wagner's rule to transpose the parts to avoid accidentals, others he didn't. I would argue that during the Late Romantic, brass instrument construction was evolving and composers were following suit in various ways. I believe composers sometimes composed following tradition and sometimes followed expediency. My opinion is Mahler began to choose expediency later on since, as you point out, it is impossible to change instruments in a few beats of rest and his earlier works had fewer changes in transposition. Other composers, such as Tchaikovsky, followed tradition. Wagner was a whole other animal.

But yes, transposed trumpet and horn parts has its origin in earlier orchestral music before the invention of valves and seeing "in B", "in Es", "in H" meant crooks to change the key.

For this reason, I believe the correct answer to Richard III's question is "yes and no" because playing earlier Baroque and Classical era compositions meant instruments in those keys, but later compositions not so much - trumpet players had chromatic instruments and could learn to transpose. Etudes that work on transposition develop the skill needed to play either parts.

Now we have so many keys of instrument available, we can choose what is easiest to get the job done.

Agreed. Transpositions originally for trumpet date back to the natural (valveless) instrument...same for horn. The player would change crooks or switch to a longer or shorter trumpet to be in the correct key of the written passage.

Notation can vary for certain transposing instruments, like bass clarinet, which is normally written in treble clef, but at times in bass clef...

https://www.jasonalder.com/blog/2020/02/20/a-guide-to-understanding-bass-clarinet-clef-notation/

Starting heavy transposition studies in college, I considered it weird when a tuba player told me that BBb tubas were non-transposing instruments, and that the player just learns different fingerings when switching to tubas in different keys: BBb, CC, Eb, F, down to subcontrabass tubas in BBBb, EEEb, FFF, et al. I really had trouble wrapping my mind around that and why that was…until I learned that the tuba did not have a valveless history, since valves have always been on the tuba & euphonium. This website states that these instruments may have transposed parts…

https://opencurriculum.org/5567/transposing-instruments/

…and there’s quite a bit of info on that website in regard to transposing and non-transposing instruments.

Learning to transpose on the trumpet is very important when it comes to orchestral and pre-valved trumpets.

Here’s one tip that may not have been shared: For some transpositions, you can just change the clef to bass clef and create the necessary key signature in your mind. By using this method, you never have to transpose more than a third! (This does not help those who are unaccustomed to reading bass clef.) For instance:

Transpose to F
Playing a C tpt

Instead of transposing up a perfect 4th (what most common orch’l rep would require), read a written C, for instance, as an E in bass clef and transpose up a step to an F. Again, you have to apply a key signature, which can be awkward at first, but it saves the mind from thinking a P4 up from what is written.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mafields627
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 3566
Location: AL

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Here’s one tip that may not have been shared: For some transpositions, you can just change the clef to bass clef and create the necessary key signature in your mind.


This also works with Alto Sax & Trombone/Baritone and Bari Sax & Tuba!
_________________
--Matt--

No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LaTrompeta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 May 2015
Posts: 538
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My trumpet teacher in high school had me learn E trumpet on Bb. That's a tri-tone transposition. It was fun. You know what else is fun? Dipping your head into a shark tank.
_________________
Selmer Radial 1970
https://trumpetboards.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blbaumgarn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 582

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:45 pm    Post subject: Most terrifying words Reply with quote

I never got close to a shark tank, but was almost talked into bobbing for french fries once. That could have been bad, too, LOL
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group