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Trombone mouthpiece for trumpet player


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ctownj30
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Trombone mouthpiece for trumpet player Reply with quote

I'm a trumpet player but picked up a valve trombone to play with.

Is there any sort/size of trombone mouthpiece I could get to make going back and forth between instruments a bit easier/less of a shock to the lips?

If I had to describe the what I'm experiencing - I don't have the muscle form to prevent all that lip from squishing into the 'bone mouthpiece, so I get tired right away.

Not looking for perfect sound and don't care enough to "develop" trombone chops - just want to be able to do the occasional tune at a jazz jam on the trombone instead w/o blowing an o-ring.

Any ideas?
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thsd
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Cass used to make a series of doubling mouthpieces, and I used one to play the trombone part in some musicals on a baritone using my trumpet embouchure. You may have to dig a little bit, but there are probably some floating around.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I picked up the bass trumpet about 4 years ago and enjoy it very much. I use a smaller tenor trombone mouthpiece with ca. 24 mm inner diameter. Think Bach 12C (which I also have but don’t like too much because of the quite sharp inner rim).

The pieces I really like are Vintage eBay finds, so not sure if you can find them easily: Couesnon 3 and Giardinelli 6D.

I’d be very interested in trying the AR Resonance, Stork, and Griego pieces for two reasons: Griego and Stork offer diameters I might like and if the AR trombone pieces are anywhere near their trumpet pieces, they are great.

Getting used to the larger diameter happens in no time, so don’t worry. I now easily (for an amateur) switch between trumpet, flugel, and bass trumpet.
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Matt K
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There tends to be a lot more variety of rim sizes on the trombone than there is on trumpet. On tenor trombone, you'll commonly find people playing from .96" inner diameter all the way through 1.08". For your use case, jazz, a lot of players are between .96 and 1.00" inner diameter (e.g. Bach 11C through 6.5AL). It really depends on your physiology what works best though. Personally, I use one of Doug Elliott's 104N rims, which is 1.04", which is actually a popular rim size from my anecdotal observations of others who also play on the same rim as I do.

If you can try pieces out, I suggest giving a variety of rim sizes a try and seeing which one works best for you. Despite Bach's silly description of mouthpieces, a 12C, for example, isn't universally the best for people with "weak lips", just as larger mouthpieces aren't necessarily more difficult to play. And finding the one that fits you best will help switch back and forth.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, and a lot of the mps can be had for 20 to 50 bucks used so trying out is not much of an issue unless you look for something special. Lots of Yamaha pieces out there, for example.
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bach 12C (or equivalent) usually comes with student horns. The Bach 6 1/2AL or Schilke 51D are good upgrades from there.
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Matt K
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually Yamaha are either very similar to the Schilkes. The Yamaha 48 that comes with all bajillion YSL354s is sort of similar to the 6.5AL or the Schilke 48.

Bachs are generally wider rimmed than the Schilke/Yamahas. If you find you lack flexibility, give the narrower rimmed variants a try. If you find that things are a little too flexible or the "slots" are a little too "wide" try something a little more wide rimmed.

You might also want to check out the various Facebook marketplaces or trombonechat.com too for used stuff.

Another popular option are the Doug Elliott stuff because it's a 3 part modular system, so you can vary just one aspect of a piece. In the before times, you could go to a convention or meet up with him if he was traveling and try pieces out much in the same way you try glasses out until you get the component that fits you well. But they're on the pricey side of pieces, although he has a pretty good return policy fwiw.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played a bit of tenor stuff. Just recently sold my Bach Bass (I call it tenor) trumpet to help my daughter get a new car. I played the 4th trumpet part in Stravinski's "Rite of Spring" back in 1992 on it, with a Bach 12C with the Amarillo Symphony (was a real kick for me to "step out of my comfort zone).

I like the 12C because it makes it sound like a tenor trumpet, not tubby like the larger Euphonium sizes. Read Vincent Bach's description of his design goals in the Bass Trumpet sometime. He was not fond of the "wolf-like tones" he ascribed to most trombones, and I can see that in playing the bass trumpet as part of the trumpet section, rather than a trombone variant. I even have a Bach 22 tenor trombone piece that gets a nice light tone on the tenor trumpet.

Also, the Schilke 51 and Bach 6 1/2 AL really wreck my trumpet chops, particularly since I do a lot of Eb and Pic playing, honestly. I have found for me personally, for a short bit of informal playing, the Kelley polycarbonate 12C easier to go back and forth on. I also still have the Cass Doubler for trombone shank. The cup rim is a bit larger than a regular trumpet mouthpiece, for sure, and the cup is quite deep. You may find at first with that mouthpiece that you sound like a bee in a large barrel, but work on your tone and focus, and it can be used.
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CalicchioMan
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:48 pm    Post subject: trombone mouthpieces Reply with quote

I use the smallest Wedge trombone available.. I'd like it a little smaller. But, it is really good.


Best,

Scott
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve fiddled a bit with TF (trumpet-flugel) mouthpieces on a tenor trombone and have been surprised how well they did. It’s like playing pedal tones, so it does alter things a bit, but I really didn’t acclimate all with trombone mouthpieces. It’s my guess that some embouchure types adapt to trombone mouthpieces better than others.

Further thoughts on TF pieces for trombone... A Reeves C2J is a bit short for ideal intonation, my Trent Austin TA/TF is a bit long, I’ve been intending to get a Curry TF piece; they’re between a full length mouthpiece (like the TA TF), and the very short Reeves C2J.

A bit of tape on the stem is what I’ve used to adapt the trumpet mouthpiece to a trombone size. A Reeves sleeve #1 is pretty close to a good fit on a tenor trombone and needs just a tiny bit of tape to work.
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Schilke 40B works well for me, although it favors the upper register. The transition period was very short.
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a Schilke 40b with my alto valve bone, a Bach 22c ( or the supplied Jupiter 12c) with my tenor valve bone and it is ok.
Small but still trombone mouthpieces.
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to use a Bach 1 1/4C for my bass trumpet (which had a trombone receiver). It's a little ill fitting but it can be made to work...adequately, not great.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My advice is that there is no reason to look for a trumpet-like trombone mouthpiece. I dinked around with this for some years, but honestly, trombone isn't that hard.

Just get a few trombone mouthpieces and practice. I find that the large mouthpiece is actually good for my trumpet chops, it's like a chop massage. I used a 12C for years, but find a Yamaha 48 or 6 1/2AL to be much more to my liking.

Switching feel odds and terrible for a while. Play through it. Practice switching. Play trombone and then trumpet and then bone again. The trumpet mouthpiece feels like a pin head. Yup. Do it enough and it doesn't. It'll be like a manual transmission - you'll have a trombone setting and a trumpet setting.

There isn't a trombone mouthpiece small enough to feel like a trumpet mouthpiece and there isn't a trumpet mouthpiece large enough to feel like trombone. Don't bother.

I didn't set out to do this, but teaching and switching back and forth did it. I used to have trouble with the woodwinds, too, but haven't for years. Clarinet felt terrible for my trumpet chops, but then it didn't matter. At all.

You probably won't take this advice and keep looking for the "easy" solution. Others have, I did too, for a while. But, if you keep at it, you'll eventually realize that just playing them for what they are will always work best.
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hibidogrulez,
Wow….A little off topic but I also play a German Kuhn & Hoyer alto Eb trumpet with a trumpet receiver. Even a Schilke 24 does not sound right (narrow sound). The best result is with a Bach 9AT mouthpiece (diameter 19 mm) even if the shank does not perfectly fit.
I would be interested to hear how a bass trumpet sounds with a Bach 1 1/4!
But of course, If it is good for you, great 😊
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This ought to help you:


Link

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delano
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a former trombone player I have to say that I 100% agree with Crazy Finn.
It is possible to play slide trombone with a trumpet mouthpiece as long as you learn to play with shorter positions than regular. The intonation is all over the place (goes very flat). Same with the valve trombone. 1 + 2 intonates more like 2 + 3 and so on. So you can play as long as you stay above or close to the middle Bflat and only use the first and second valve.
A trombone mouthpiece is much easier to play and is a great massage for your trumpet chops.
But of course do what you want to do.
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voltrane wrote:
I would be interested to hear how a bass trumpet sounds with a Bach 1 1/4!
But of course, If it is good for you, great 😊

No, it sounded terrible...at least compared to when an actual trombone player using a proper mouthpiece played it. Ended up selling the bass trumpet to him...he played it far better than I ever did.

Funny thing though, using a trumpet mouthpiece on a bass trumpet gave me almost the same upper range as I did on my Bb.
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Trombone mouthpiece for trumpet player Reply with quote

ctownj30 wrote:
don't care enough to "develop" trombone chops - just want to be able to do the occasional tune at a jazz jam on the trombone


That won't happen. You need to practice trombone to be good at it.

That said, for me, practicing trombone supported my trumpet chops. Almost a "two for one" deal. The transition issue goes away fast. I recommend the easiest trombone mouthpiece that sounds good. Bach 12C or 11C.

The key is that the different rims make concentric circles and don't interfere with each other. I would play the two side by side, trying to match the phrase with the trombone or vice versa. It's really not a big deal.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once made a trumpet mouthpiece as deep as a bone mouthpiece for a guy. I though it was terrible, and could not play any lower on it than i can go on a trumpet like E on the third space of bass clef. He could do more with it than me so whatever, maybe it is a thing that can work.

I also made a guy a bunch of trumpet mouthpieces as wide as bone mouthpieces, and as shallow as trumpet mouthpieces. He said that it worked for him, and im sure it did. I never actually heard it though. I know that i could not make that work in the slightest, but of course i'm not a bone player
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