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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3826 Location: Greece
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 10:45 am Post subject: |
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krax wrote: | There were Selmer horns with K-mod (= modern) recievers in Europe without K-mod engravings. It just became their standard reciever, and naturally, those trumpets they made that weren't K-modifieds, well, they were not marked K-modified even though thay were made with the same kind of reciever. The oldest De Villes were made in the late 50's with the same reciever as the K-Mods. The Sabarich model were made with modern receivers too, at the same time.
K-mods and first valve triggers... I have one at home right now without first valve trigger but with engraving. I had a K-Mod 19A just a month ago with no engraving and without first valve. I believe that one was made on special order.
And that's the thing. I would say the standard US export K-Modified were made as yourbrass states it, with first valve trigger and engraving. Whatever you could buy in Europe, closer to the factory, some shops surely could get their trumpets with different options. There are some horns with special factory engravings around too.
Congrats on the horn, Giakara! I was about to bid on that one too, but forgot about it. |
Thanks my friend , if I get it well my horn is a European order without the K-modified modifications , so it probably takes older Selmer double cups , do you now what is this modifications that have the K-modified horns accept engraved bell , different mpc reciver and trigger on first valve slide?
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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K-modified refers to a fundamental reworking of the leadpipe and bell tapers to shift the bore progression in a way that improved intonation across the registers. The "K" is for the designer, Keith Ecker, who later moved to Leblanc and Holton. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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king leopardi Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2009 Posts: 278
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I shared this a few years back and thought it might be of interest in this thread...
I have several of the Selmer Paris trumpets that are referred to in the Selmer catalogs (beginning around 1938) as either the No. 60 or (in the case of those with the first valve triggers) No. 60T. They're often referred to these as "Selmer Grands Prix" or just "Selmer Paris" trumpets.
Like a lot of other people, I have been a bit confused about the meaning of the numbers on the underside of the receiver (19, 20, 21, 22, etc.)
In the 1956 Selmer catalog, there is a note about these numbers: "A trumpet's performance is affected not only by its bore, but by the length, diameter, and taper of its leader pipe. Thus, because of the differences in their leader pipes, you will find a distinct difference in playing characteristics between Nos. 19A and 24A or 20 and 24B, even though their bores are identical."
Next to this, there is a chart showing bore specifications (note that by 1956, you don't see the 21, 22, or 23):
Model No. 59; Nominal Designation medium; Bore No. 19A; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .458"
Model No. 59; Nominal Designation medium-large; Bore No. 24A; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .458"
Model No. 60; Nominal Designation medium; Bore No. 20; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .458"
Model No. 60; Nominal Designation medium-large; Bore No. 24B; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .458"
Model No. 60; Nominal Designation large; Bore No. 25; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .468"
The note about the length and taper from the 1956 catalog got me curious about the length of the leader pipes of the Model No. 60 trumpets that I own. These all span from around 1939-1956. None of these are the Modified K models. And as it turns out, I have at least one sample of each, so I got out the ruler.
These measurements are all done from the receiver joint to the tuning slide joint:
The leader pipes of the Selmer 19, 20, 21 and 22 measure 6.625 inches.
The leader pipe of the Selmer 23 measures 7.5 inches.
The leader pipes of the Selmer 24 and 25 measures 7.375 inches.
Note that between numbers 19-22 and 23-25, there is a gap of approximately .375 inches.
Since I have a handful of the balanced models, I'll go ahead and throw in those measurements:
The 23A is 7.125 inches in length, with the 24A coming in just a bit longer at 7.125 inches.
Since several of these share the same leader pipe length, I am wondering if the numeric designations are making a reference to the taper of the leader pipe as well as the bore. The next step would be checking the bore sizes on all of these for comparison.
As a final aside, in searching through the TH forums, I found a post by lipshurt regarding and article on the Modified K model from the 1960 London Selmer catalog (K-Modified, A New Trumpet by Selmer Paris). What particularly jumped out at me was this: "The larger the bore, the more critical the mouthpipe taper becomes for the player. An error of just .005" on the mouthpipe or bell is enough to spoil a big horn. So the same problem had a different answer for each Selmer bore. Finding the answers took time, but the reactions we finally got from the boys in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York show that we did it. We had a hard time getting those experimental instruments away from the studio men once they tried them! We worked over the entire instrument in this way, almost thousandth by thousandth. Valve slides were cut to produce the combination that was easiest for the player on the job. Now that we've got the right combination, we're matching it down to the last .001" on every K-modified job that leaves the shop." I know that the conventional accepted reason for the creation of the K-Modified model is that the receiver was changed to accept a standard mouthpiece. However, it's interesting that is not mentioned here. I kind of wonder if it was created to standardize the trumpet from its many different variations.
ANYWAY--I do apologize. I usually don't make these long-winded posts. But I thought that anyone who might be a fellow Selmer Paris enthusiast would find this interesting.
Dave Brewer |
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 2814 Location: Coarsegold, CA
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Congratulations giakara on a great-looking K-Mod!
I'm posting because I also just joined the club. Mine is a 24B with an X leadpipe that was up for sale for quite a while here on the TH Marketplace. It should be here tomorrow. The experts here tell me that the X stands for larger leadpipe, and the seller tells me it makes a huge difference! Very dark and broad he says.
I always wondered about all those symphony cats who played the K-Mod. Maybe they were playing one like mine. I'm hoping it's a great dark small-group jazz horn.
I'll keep you informed.
(If anyone thinks I'm hijacking the thread for personal reasons and would like me to butt out, just let me know. I just thought readers of this thread may find it interesting.) |
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Mike Prestage Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 Posts: 714 Location: Hereford, UK
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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king leopardi wrote: |
As a final aside, in searching through the TH forums, I found a post by lipshurt regarding and article on the Modified K model from the 1960 London Selmer catalog (K-Modified, A New Trumpet by Selmer Paris). What particularly jumped out at me was this: "The larger the bore, the more critical the mouthpipe taper becomes for the player. An error of just .005" on the mouthpipe or bell is enough to spoil a big horn. So the same problem had a different answer for each Selmer bore. Finding the answers took time, but the reactions we finally got from the boys in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York show that we did it. We had a hard time getting those experimental instruments away from the studio men once they tried them! We worked over the entire instrument in this way, almost thousandth by thousandth. Valve slides were cut to produce the combination that was easiest for the player on the job. Now that we've got the right combination, we're matching it down to the last .001" on every K-modified job that leaves the shop." I know that the conventional accepted reason for the creation of the K-Modified model is that the receiver was changed to accept a standard mouthpiece. However, it's interesting that is not mentioned here. I kind of wonder if it was created to standardize the trumpet from its many different variations.
ANYWAY--I do apologize. I usually don't make these long-winded posts. But I thought that anyone who might be a fellow Selmer Paris enthusiast would find this interesting.
Dave Brewer |
Thanks a lot for re-posting this - I'd forgotten about it (and no complaints from me about the length of your post!).
Afaik the idea that the K-Mods were created to address a specific 'problem' with mouthpiece compatibility is just an assumption, based on people noticing differences in receiver dimensions between K-Mods and earlier Selmers. Besides at least one piece of marketing material apparently failing to mention this, another fact that doesn't fit too well IMO is that Selmer also used the K-Modified label on cornets, flugels and trombones. I reckon it was fundamentally a marketing thing, which Selmer may or may not have been honest enough to reserve for instruments which really had undergone some design tweaks.
Mike |
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king leopardi Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2009 Posts: 278
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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You're welcome! |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 680 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:38 am Post subject: |
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I would say that if you change the reciever, then you have to change the leadpipe too, if you want to keep the intonation and the same playing characteristics. That will of course lead to some tweaking where you find it yielding and that will of course be felt like and described as improvements.
So no, I never meant it to sound like the K-Modification was just a reciever change. They needed to change the reciever for US export horns, Keith Ecker did that and reworked their existing "Grand Prix" (= those we like to refer to as GP, but never carried that name) leadpipes to make them work like before or perhaps better (matter of taste, as Giakara has said, playing those with an original Selmer mouthpiece is a great experience). Naturally, it would have been stupid by Selmer Paris to keep using the old reciever in their non-K-Mod horns, so they used the new receiver everywhere.
Regarding the trombones and the cornets, if I remember it right they were introduced later, when they already had established the model name.
Back to the engraving, I have seen a few and own one Selmer trumpet of the 50's with a factory looking engraving, that just isn't good. Those have all hade Selmer London cases, so my conclusion is that they were exported without engravings and cases to Selmer London, then some guy there imitated the factory engraving with some kind of early Dremel tool. I guess the price without the factory engraving (and the original case) was siginificantly lower, making it up to the importer/dealer to decide if it was worth it or not. |
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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3826 Location: Greece
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:00 am Post subject: |
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I dont have any expiriance but I guess that if you have a mpc cut for sleeves and with the right sleeve probably the grand prix models will not have problem.
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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Mike Prestage Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 Posts: 714 Location: Hereford, UK
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 2:04 am Post subject: |
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krax wrote: | I would say that if you change the reciever, then you have to change the leadpipe too, if you want to keep the intonation and the same playing characteristics. That will of course lead to some tweaking where you find it yielding and that will of course be felt like and described as improvements.
So no, I never meant it to sound like the K-Modification was just a reciever change. They needed to change the reciever for US export horns, Keith Ecker did that and reworked their existing "Grand Prix" (= those we like to refer to as GP, but never carried that name) leadpipes to make them work like before or perhaps better (matter of taste, as Giakara has said, playing those with an original Selmer mouthpiece is a great experience). Naturally, it would have been stupid by Selmer Paris to keep using the old reciever in their non-K-Mod horns, so they used the new receiver everywhere. |
To be honest, the above seems self-contradictory to me. I wasn't intending to argue against anything you'd said (or I thought you'd said!). I was questioning the general idea (which I've probably repeated myself at some point) that the K-Mod trumpets were new versions of Selmer's designs, created to address a specific issue with mouthpiece fit. (Btw, I'm completely open to the possibility of this being true - I'm just not aware of any compelling evidence for it.)
I'm really glad you mentioned the correlation between the cruder engraving and Selmer London cases. I own one of those horns and had been puzzled by the engraving. It has a London case and, from the little knowledge I have of its history, was almost certainly originally sold in the UK.
Mike |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Lots of interesting info. I can tell all that my colleague's 24B, which is a pre K-Mod trumpet, has an extraordinarily deep mouthpiece receiver.
We also have a Selmer C/Bb trumpet that came with the original mouthpiece. That is really rare to see out here on the West Coast, and it fits very deeply into the receiver. It's also the only piece I've played on that horn that I liked - a modern piece just didn't play as well.
I can't speak to lead pipe measurements on these instruments - never made a study of it, but K-Mod receivers are for standard Morse taper mouthpieces, as most receivers were after the late 50's. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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king leopardi Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2009 Posts: 278
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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The website saxophone.org has a publications tab that links to several instrument catalogs, including Selmer Paris. Click on that and you'll find a bunch of their catalogs in pdf format with information on their whole instrument line--including trumpets.
I've found them to be a great source of information!
Dave Brewer |
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bebop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 654 Location: St Johnsbury Vermont
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:19 pm Post subject: Bell Material on K-Modified |
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What is the bell material on the Selmer Paris k-Modified trumpet (1959)? Mine looks like some kind of nickel or yellow brass mix. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Bell Material on K-Modified |
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bebop wrote: | What is the bell material on the Selmer Paris k-Modified trumpet (1959)? Mine looks like some kind of nickel or yellow brass mix. |
I can't speak to your specific horn - especially without model number - but most bells by French makers were, not surprisingly, French brass (64/36). _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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