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Yamaha Schilke Clones



 
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Pocket Monkeys
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:16 am    Post subject: Yamaha Schilke Clones Reply with quote

I've read all the threads here on TH about the Yamaha Schilke clones; Ren's involvement, the letter "A" after the serial number, etc. etc. There's not a lot of heads up comparison though between the same model horn made in Japan vs one made in the US. The QC on Yamaha horns now is excellent, I'm just wondering if you took side by side horns of the same model which would mostly like be the better horn.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say they are not clones. The valve block was the same for a while, but that was kind of schilke using a yamaha block. I had a couple of those that were great. The leadpipes on the yamaha horns that were like the schilkes were not the same, and the bells were different too.

The B7 and the yamaha 636 were both medium bore large bell, but the bell on the 636 was not the same. I liked the 636 a lot. Still have a 636 bell in my bell crate.

the 737/738/739 yamahas were the ones that were similar to the B series, and those were good horns. The 6000 series that replaced them were also good, but the old 636 and 739 were pretty cool, and back in the day were not expensive. I got one brand new in 1979 for 400 bucks. The year before that i got a new Schilke b2 for 600 bucks.
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Pocket Monkeys
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I understand they're not clones. I'm not asking in comparison to Schilke's own horns. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. For example, a 632 made in Japan vs a 632 made in the US...which is most likely the better horn. I'm really just curious because a lot of the threads are Schilke vs Yamaha craftsmanship quality. I guess what I'm asking is Yamaha Japan vs Yamaha US craftsmanship quality.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take is this:

- Japanese built Yamahas are tops in QC. They just are.

- The US built horns were made in Michigan, I believe. Schilke consulted with Yamaha in the 1970's, but the "A" horns were built at a Yamaha factory in Grand Rapids, if I recall correctly. Schilke was not involved in their actual production.

- Yamahas built in the US might be not quite as good as the Japanese built ones, but you'll almost certainly never notice or be able to tell.

- US built Yamaha horns still have higher QC than the locally built Bach/Benge/Kanstul/UMI level quality.

- Some of these horns of this era have Yamalloy valves which is more of a thing than QC between Japan and US.

- Yamahas built elsewhere are good to very good - including student instrument production in China and Indonesia and elsewhere.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Schilke Loyalist site provides some info about the two companies interaction:
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Miscellaneous.html#M%20Series
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B_Starry
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Singular comparison, but I had a Japan 632 and an American 634, and I thought the 632 was a much better horn. Great sound and playing characteristics.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B_Starry wrote:
Singular comparison, but I had a Japan 632 and an American 634, and I thought the 632 was a much better horn. Great sound and playing characteristics.


The 632/732 was a medium bore with the Schilke designed "A" Yamaha bell, while the 634/734 was an ML bore with the "B" bell from Schilke's original series for them. Different horns.

(Think B7 with a copper bell vs B5 - though the late leadpipe and tuning slide geometry is different from Schilke B series)
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trumphat
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It always seemed to me that Yamaha had Ren Schilke design their trumpets and they made these Schilke "clones" until Ren died, then they started making Bach "clones".
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumphat wrote:
It always seemed to me that Yamaha had Ren Schilke design their trumpets and they made these Schilke "clones" until Ren died, then they started making Bach "clones".


Yamaha was building horns with the YL bell (Bach 37 taper) as early as 1971 and the YR bell (YL tweaked for pairing with a large bore) by 1975 while Schilke was guiding their design.
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p76
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey there,

I have a YTR634 early build made in Japan, and I had a 732 "A" model. In terms of build quality, I'd be hard-pressed to notice a difference. My 634 I think is a late 1960s build, and guessing the 732 was early/mid 70s. They had both lasted well, valves were good, as was workmanship.

I don't think Yamaha at that time would have let a bad horn out the door, no matter where it was made.

Cheers,
Roger
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F.E. Olds Nut
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the 6xx and 7xx series Yamahas look similar to a Schilke at first glance, they are not direct copies. The wrap on the Yamaha horns is slightly wider compared to a Schilke.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a 636 made in Grand Rapids. Build quality was real good. Certain things were kind of cheap though, like the water keys, and valve buttons, but the Japanese ones were exactly the same. At the same time I had a 631 cornet made in Japan, and that was great too. It had different buttons. Both horns bought the same year for 400 bucks. The 631 valve body is now in my piccolo trumpet. Neither horn was yamaloy, and both were bought in Grand Rapids in 1980. Bought from a store where Al Alea the bass play player was the repair man. Great bass player and great repair guy who showed me taps and dies for making screw rim mouthpiece conversions. I was doing them single point, and still do single point. I was 20 and he was maybe 60. I did some gigs with him. Wonder what happened to him
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B_Starry
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personal experiences on horns I've owned & played, using a "similar model/specs" lens:

YTR-632 vs Schilke B7 --> preferred the Schilke
YTR-634 vs Schilke B5 --> preferred the Schilke
YTR-738 vs Schilke B1 --> preferred the Schilke
YTR-6335 vs Schilke B5 --> preferred the Schilke
YTR-8335 vs Schilke B5 --> preferred the Schilke

I also owned Schilke B6, B4 and HC1 models, and preferred the B6 the most (and still own one.) But, I'd place the B5 right along side it ...
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B_Starry wrote:
Personal experiences on horns I've owned & played, using a "similar model/specs" lens:

YTR-632 vs Schilke B7 --> preferred the Schilke
YTR-634 vs Schilke B5 --> preferred the Schilke
YTR-738 vs Schilke B1 --> preferred the Schilke
YTR-6335 vs Schilke B5 --> preferred the Schilke
YTR-8335 vs Schilke B5 --> preferred the Schilke

I also owned Schilke B6, B4 and HC1 models, and preferred the B6 the most (and still own one.) But, I'd place the B5 right along side it ...


I take it that Yamaha vs Schilke --> prefer Schilke?

The leadpipe/tuning slide geometry Schilke used for the Yamahas is significantly different. I believe he recognized that the market for Yamaha would not be, on average, as capable as the skilled professional market for his B series, so he made accommodations for the center of the bell curve - the strategy that has made Yamaha a volume-oriented success. (this is the classic case of "the more it can do for you, the more it can do to you")

{as the 6335 and 8335 are 37 bells, not Schilke bell tapers, I would think the more appropriate comparison would be to a Bach 37 - now in that Yamaha vs. Bach paring, do you prefer the Yamaha, or the Bach?}
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