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steve0930 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 191
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:59 am Post subject: A question for the physicists. |
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Hi fellow trumpet players
Today I tried a new approach to developing my high range (high for me right now is c above the staff.. ie not much!)
Today I focused on going down rather than up - creating as easy and resonant sound in notes below my high range .. for example a G above the staff (comfort range) - with no mind set of wanting to go higher - but then the 3 or 4 notes above the G (Bb C D E?) would sail out as easy and resonant as you could wish for and with zero extra effort. So my simple question - if you play a (comfort range) note with more resonance and a fuller sound are you then making it easier.. indeed a lot easier- to play the high notes above.. are you creating overtones or the like which can then blossom out? - Spot the language of the non physicist.
If this is is the case I can start to get my head round the idea that the more easy and resonant I can play below my target high notes the faster I can develop towards those high notes - ie a bit of paradox - the more time I play better lower - the less time I play higher - the faster I can learn to play higher?
Comments welcome - thanks and stay safe Steve in Helsinki.
PS Aged 14-16 on a Thursday evening we had physics homework - I might start at 6pm cos The New Avengers was on TV at 9pm. The worst of it was that the answers were in the back of the book so I would be at it for 2 or 3 hours failing again and again until at last, and usually just in time, getting it right - (I have a twin bro to whom I would then pass on the correct workings!) I didn't know then this would be good preparation for learning the trumpet.. _________________ My Number 1 supporter
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:03 am Post subject: |
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several things at play here probably. t could be any combination of these:
1) when you are getting that resonant sound on G, you are actually firming/forming you embouchure/air system for the most efficient sound production, and you are using only the minimum mouthpiece pressure etc. In other words the resonance indicates that your chops chops are "right", and when they are "right" you get more resonance and also more range.
2) more "resonance" implies that sometime you have less resonance,and that means its not set up right in you chops/air system, and then to play higher you kind of have to "try harder" blow harder, push harder etc. All things that make for even more "wrongness" in the system.
3)If you start thinking about a high note before you get there in the music, a whole bunch of wrongness starts happening, shalow breath, way too big of breath, more pressure, more volume, sharpness, loss of resonance, mouthpiece slides to the wrong spot on the chops, miscounting rests, all kinds of physical and mental crazy S@#T can happen, and its embarrassing, and then its gonna be worse the next time. All because you lost the "sound" of the resonance that indicates all is well.
4) you might be simply trying the play notes in situations that you just are not yet ready for. Like playing lead on a hard tune when you dont have the development yet. That can make you get desperate, and make you mad, and make you hurt yourself by pushing, or just grasp at straws at ways to try "harder" to get the notes out. One way to ease that problem is to ask if you can only play every other rep during rehearsals. Everyone else plays every time, you hear your notes, finger you parts, and breathe good and whisper your parts. DOnt use your voice, that doesnt have have enough air flow.
You'll get there if you are interested, and dont get impatient:) _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 689 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: |
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What Lipshurt says, in short, more physiology and psychology than physics! _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: A question for the physicists. |
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steve0930 wrote: | Hi fellow trumpet players
Today I tried a new approach to developing my high range (high for me right now is c above the staff.. ie not much!)
Today I focused on going down rather than up - creating as easy and resonant sound in notes below my high range .. for example a G above the staff (comfort range) - with no mind set of wanting to go higher - but then the 3 or 4 notes above the G (Bb C D E?) would sail out as easy and resonant as you could wish for and with zero extra effort. So my simple question - if you play a (comfort range) note with more resonance and a fuller sound are you then making it easier.. indeed a lot easier- to play the high notes above.. are you creating overtones or the like which can then blossom out? - Spot the language of the non physicist.
If this is is the case I can start to get my head round the idea that the more easy and resonant I can play below my target high notes the faster I can develop towards those high notes - ie a bit of paradox - the more time I play better lower - the less time I play higher - the faster I can learn to play higher?
Comments welcome - thanks and stay safe Steve in Helsinki.
PS Aged 14-16 on a Thursday evening we had physics homework - I might start at 6pm cos The New Avengers was on TV at 9pm. The worst of it was that the answers were in the back of the book so I would be at it for 2 or 3 hours failing again and again until at last, and usually just in time, getting it right - (I have a twin bro to whom I would then pass on the correct workings!) I didn't know then this would be good preparation for learning the trumpet.. |
Very good.
Notice how your sound changes 3-4 notes below your highest note. That is the area you work on to extend your range. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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The 'physics' might be that in the process of increasing the resonance you are also reducing the rim pressure on the upper lip - and that reduced upper lip pressure then allows the upper lip to be capable of moving in the manner necessary for higher notes. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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My sense is that general efficiency stands to facilitate range up to a few ledger lines above the staff. But from what I can see that it's unlikely to unlock the higher range. From what I can tell that frequently requires a more specialized approach and practice. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: A question for the physicists. |
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Billy B wrote: |
Notice how your sound changes 3-4 notes below your highest note. That is the area you work on to extend your range. |
I think this is good advice, and something people overlook too often. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | The 'physics' might be that in the process of increasing the resonance you are also reducing the rim pressure on the upper lip - and that reduced upper lip pressure then allows the upper lip to be capable of moving in the manner necessary for higher notes. |
No _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: A question for the physicists. |
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steve0930 wrote: | Hi fellow trumpet players
Today I tried a new approach to developing my high range (high for me right now is c above the staff.. ie not much!)
Today I focused on going down rather than up - creating as easy and resonant sound in notes below my high range .. for example a G above the staff (comfort range) - with no mind set of wanting to go higher - but then the 3 or 4 notes above the G (Bb C D E?) would sail out as easy and resonant as you could wish for and with zero extra effort. So my simple question - if you play a (comfort range) note with more resonance and a fuller sound are you then making it easier.. indeed a lot easier- to play the high notes above.. are you creating overtones or the like which can then blossom out? - Spot the language of the non physicist.
If this is is the case I can start to get my head round the idea that the more easy and resonant I can play below my target high notes the faster I can develop towards those high notes - ie a bit of paradox - the more time I play better lower - the less time I play higher - the faster I can learn to play higher?
Comments welcome - thanks and stay safe Steve in Helsinki.
PS Aged 14-16 on a Thursday evening we had physics homework - I might start at 6pm cos The New Avengers was on TV at 9pm. The worst of it was that the answers were in the back of the book so I would be at it for 2 or 3 hours failing again and again until at last, and usually just in time, getting it right - (I have a twin bro to whom I would then pass on the correct workings!) I didn't know then this would be good preparation for learning the trumpet.. |
I tend to both agree and disagree.
If you're speaking of improving your existing range? Your suggestion seems to be okay.
But if on the other hand, you're attempting to increase your ''practice room range'' into notes well above what you're presently capable of? Then I'd say that just playing notes within your existing range is likely to result in a marginal or perhaps very little range increase.
Speaking of physics and physicists? The question you may want to answer is,
''Do you want to learn to play the complete range of the instrument (ie trumpet) or not?
Let's say that the ''complete range'' is somewhere significantly above G/High High C. Like being able to really nail the actual G/Double C. While this particular note isn't necessary for general playing, if you do possess it? It means that all the notes below are simply inconsequential.
I don't practice hitting a G above Double C because I think that this is a necessary note to have in my repertoire. I practice it because it means that my G/High C and Double C will be all that much more easier.
My guess is that presently you probably view such notes as ''extreme range'' and don't believe that they are something you'll ever need. And this if so, is perfectly fine with me. The funny thing about high range however is that it tends to be addictive. The more range that you gain control over? The more that you want. Sooner or later however most trumpet players will find that they have a,
''Range Ceiling'' In example: A point where they simply can not play above. ''Not for a million dollars''.
If this becomes your eventual condition I've got some bad news for you. From my experience, I've found that range limitations are usually the result of an inferior embouchure. And that most trumpet players possess this unfortunate chink in their armor. I know that I certainly did. I used to cut completely out at G/High C. And even that note wasn't so easy to play.
Am now about 18 months into making a major embouchure correction. A beginner again, I have good days and bad days. Highs & Lows. That's just the way that it is but I'm getting stronger.
Good luck my friend! _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | if you play a (comfort range) note with more resonance and a fuller sound are you then making it easier.. indeed a lot easier- to play the high notes above.. are you creating overtones or the like which can then blossom out? -
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When playing a G on top of staff; B-flat , C and D are not overtones of that pitch. So, the answer is no.
But learning to play low notes with more efficiency and less effort is beneficial to range expansion. Many players use excessive effort on low pitches and are limited in range because of it. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Quote: | if you play a (comfort range) note with more resonance and a fuller sound are you then making it easier.. indeed a lot easier- to play the high notes above.. are you creating overtones or the like which can then blossom out? -
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When playing a G on top of staff; B-flat , C and D are not overtones of that pitch. So, the answer is no.
But learning to play low notes with more efficiency and less effort is beneficial to range expansion. Many players use excessive effort on low pitches and are limited in range because of it. |
_________________ Bill Bergren |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: A question for the physicists. |
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Lionel wrote: | steve0930 wrote: | Hi fellow trumpet players
Today I tried a new approach to developing my high range (high for me right now is c above the staff.. ie not much!)
Today I focused on going down rather than up - creating as easy and resonant sound in notes below my high range .. for example a G above the staff (comfort range) - with no mind set of wanting to go higher - but then the 3 or 4 notes above the G (Bb C D E?) would sail out as easy and resonant as you could wish for and with zero extra effort. So my simple question - if you play a (comfort range) note with more resonance and a fuller sound are you then making it easier.. indeed a lot easier- to play the high notes above.. are you creating overtones or the like which can then blossom out? - Spot the language of the non physicist.
If this is is the case I can start to get my head round the idea that the more easy and resonant I can play below my target high notes the faster I can develop towards those high notes - ie a bit of paradox - the more time I play better lower - the less time I play higher - the faster I can learn to play higher?
Comments welcome - thanks and stay safe Steve in Helsinki.
PS Aged 14-16 on a Thursday evening we had physics homework - I might start at 6pm cos The New Avengers was on TV at 9pm. The worst of it was that the answers were in the back of the book so I would be at it for 2 or 3 hours failing again and again until at last, and usually just in time, getting it right - (I have a twin bro to whom I would then pass on the correct workings!) I didn't know then this would be good preparation for learning the trumpet.. |
I tend to both agree and disagree.
If you're speaking of improving your existing range? Your suggestion seems to be okay.
But if on the other hand, you're attempting to increase your ''practice room range'' into notes well above what you're presently capable of? Then I'd say that just playing notes within your existing range is likely to result in a marginal or perhaps very little range increase.
Speaking of physics and physicists? The question you may want to answer is,
''Do you want to learn to play the complete range of the instrument (ie trumpet) or not?
Let's say that the ''complete range'' is somewhere significantly above G/High High C. Like being able to really nail the actual G/Double C. While this particular note isn't necessary for general playing, if you do possess it? It means that all the notes below are simply inconsequential.
I don't practice hitting a G above Double C because I think that this is a necessary note to have in my repertoire. I practice it because it means that my G/High C and Double C will be all that much more easier.
My guess is that presently you probably view such notes as ''extreme range'' and don't believe that they are something you'll ever need. And this if so, is perfectly fine with me. The funny thing about high range however is that it tends to be addictive. The more range that you gain control over? The more that you want. Sooner or later however most trumpet players will find that they have a,
''Range Ceiling'' In example: A point where they simply can not play above. ''Not for a million dollars''.
If this becomes your eventual condition I've got some bad news for you. From my experience, I've found that range limitations are usually the result of an inferior embouchure. And that most trumpet players possess this unfortunate chink in their armor. I know that I certainly did. I used to cut completely out at G/High C. And even that note wasn't so easy to play.
Am now about 18 months into making a major embouchure correction. A beginner again, I have good days and bad days. Highs & Lows. That's just the way that it is but I'm getting stronger.
Good luck my friend! |
Lionel
I much believe in the sc method and have seen good improvement just from the settings. I believe if you can do it that it will take you very high with accuracy. I whold like to see more people look at the material and share about their experience.
BUT you are representing it as something everyone should want and those who don’t might be defecient in some way, and I think it may be hurting the cause of promoting interest in the method somewhat. I share your enthusiasm and see pieces in lots of peoples teaching. You know not everyone can pull it off. It’s a viable alternative for some. I agree on a dbl c in practice for a dependable hi g, that’s my goal.
Rod |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Although the following thought may actually contradict the words of Roy Stevens? I truly believe that there are parts of the method that can be taken ''Cafeteria Style''. Meaning,
''Take what you want and leave the rest''.
In fact I like to preface most of the thoughts that I give to new students with this following introduction,
''Feel free to either accept or reject any of my ideas. Regardless, however? Always try to remain open-minded. As what may seem right today, could be wrong tomorrow. And what is wrong today? May be correct tomorrow''.
Many trumpet players have difficulty with the forward jaw position directed by Stevens-Costello. I know that I certainly did. However, just because initially, I had great difficulty pulling off the forward jaw embouchure setting? There certainly was no reason why I couldn't maintain the ''Two Aperture Theory''. I recall Dr. William Moriarty's emphatic wwords on this very subject only a year ago,
''It's the REED man! The UPPER LIP IS THE REED''!
One simply must maintain the upper lip (the REED!) in a position where it isn't encumbered by the upper teeth. Basic stuff here folks. Today I'd no more leave my upper lip completely recessed behind the upper teeth than I would by installing a clarinet reed in backward.
I found out way back in 1975 (and WITHOUT changing my embouchure at all!) that I could easily maintain my upper lip at least slightly below my upper teeth regardless of whether I employed a forward or a receded jaw embouchure position.
By doing this I was able to make my trumpet career much more viable. I soon developed a good solid High G and without changing my embouchure. Not only that? But I was swiftly able to connect my Low C to my High F . That and my power. volume and endurance improved some 300%.
This was a virtual miracle at the time. Now having said that? I was still missing a very important part of the Stevens System. This being the playing of ''statics'' in order to complete the full range on my trumpet. By merely keeping my upper lip down slightly below my upper teeth and without protruding my jaw I became stuck at High G for the next fifty years or so.
I think that it is important to avoid dogma. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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