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Refurbishing VS Reconditioned (Pros Only Please)



 
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PNut
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 6:58 am    Post subject: Refurbishing VS Reconditioned (Pros Only Please) Reply with quote

I just realized there is a difference between the terms Refurbishing and Reconditioned.

I want to make sure my ad for my 1955 Olds Ambassador is not misleading.

Professional Opinions only please.

Here's what I've done since purchasing the trumpet. Please tell me if it's one or the other? Thx.

- Soldered off the main tuning slide crook to release the slide.
- Penetrating oil to help remove the above and remainder slides.
- Chemically cleaned the trumpet.
- Thoroughly washed trumpet w snake warm water and Dawn dish soap.
- Dried thoroughly.
- Buffed the tuning slides with compound and wick by hand.
- Soldered the crook back on the main tuning slide.
- Fixed a stuck piston valve.
- Cleaned piston valves and casings.
- Disassembled piston valves, to clean, and reassemble.
- Fixed water key and replaced corks.
- Removed old remaining lacquer with Feree's gel remover. (Excellent stuff)
- Washed and dried again.
- Properly buffed entire external trumpet, some by hand.
- Polished entire trumpet, except tuning slide inserts.
- Purchased new Yamaha TR11B4 mouthpiece.
- Oiled piston valves.
- Greased slides.
- Reassembled trumpet.
- Tested for leaks.
- Play tested by local trumpet player. (I play alto sax)
- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Refurbished is 'as new'.
You write:

- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny.

so that's not refurbished.
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PNut
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shawnino wrote:
Refurbished is 'as new'.
You write:

- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny.

so that's not refurbished.


Thx for the clarification!

I guess in the tech world it might mean the opposite. It's why I asked.

https://techcitytimes.com/reconditioned-vs-refurbished/
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is, they have been used interchangeably (wrongly) so muchthe distinction has been lost.
Better, if you can/have space, is to properly detail all the work you've done.
Customer can call it whatever he likes.
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PNut
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shawnino wrote:
Thing is, they have been used interchangeably (wrongly) so muchthe distinction has been lost.
Better, if you can/have space, is to properly detail all the work you've done.
Customer can call it whatever he likes.


Ah, good idea!
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reconditioned to proper playing condition.
condition: used excellent ready to play, raw brass finnish
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PNut
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
reconditioned to proper playing condition.
condition: used excellent ready to play, raw brass finnish



Yes, that does make things clearer.
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PNut
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if a trumpet is restored:

- All of the above and...

- All dents removed.
- Piston valves & casings honed, and sized.
- New springs, corks, and felts.
- Red-rot parts replaced with new tubing.
- Re-lacquered or Silver / Nickel plated.


Am I missing anything?
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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Refurbishing VS Reconditioned (Pros Only Please) Reply with quote

PNut wrote:
... Professional Opinions only please.

I washed dishes professionally in the 1970's, so happy to help. I have never worked in a music related field, so my opinions are not clouded by pesky annoyances like profitability and putting food on the table.

Quote:
reconditioned, refurbished, restored...

Just words when selling something. Like a 'rebuilt' transmission for your car. Better off with a salvaged one that's never been opened.

I personally won't buy a horn that mentions anything to do with reconditioned, refurbished, restored. Too often the quality or type of work is not what I am looking for. Sometimes a seller has to prioritize cosmetics over function. Like buffing valves for good pictures, at the expense of increased leakage. The best vintage horn is a closet queen, new old stock, time capsule, recovered lost inventory.

Quote:
Piston valves & casings honed, and sized

Deal breaker for me. In my opinion removing metal from the valve casing or piston is not the way to solve a valve problem.

Quote:
Chemically cleaned the trumpet

This is a negative for me, as acid eats metal. But it's a plus for others. Not sure if mentioning it is good or bad.

Quote:
New springs

Replacement springs often give a less linear force than originals. Olds put a great effort into minimizing the valve open-close force difference.

Quote:
Fixed a stuck piston valve

Yikes, hope it wasn't a casing dent or bent valve.

Quote:
Tested for leaks

Excellent!

Selling musical instruments when you are both knowledgeable and honest puts you at a disadvantage to many other sellers. I listed a King Silver Sonic cornet on ebay for a long time without selling. This was because I explained how the valves have enough wear to see play in the valve stems. It played fine, but I can't be happy with that much valve wear (or maybe excessive buffing by a previous refurbisher?). I saved the sterling silver bell and am looking for a donor horn with good valves.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post by Beyond16. I am a retired pro teacher of law so maybe I am allowed to chime in.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cooked donuts professionally at one time so here are my two cents.

It seems as if you are doing the work yourself. If you are a pro that is probably ok, but if not, I probably would not be interested or certainly not at a premium price.

If the listing uses the terms reconditioned or refurbished my first question would be by who?

I also am not interested in raw brass so stripping and buffing are not a plus for me.
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PNut
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx for everyone's professional opinions! So many techs. Wow!

I too worked professionally as a:

paperboy

snow shoveler

shoe salesman

dishwasher

waiter, cook

delivery driver

restaurant manager

autoparts clerk

insect control manager

semi-truck driver

railway welder

hazardous chemical worker

trade college student - 1 year

university student - 6 years

teacher - too long. LOL!
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harryjamesworstnightmare
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't use either of those terms. Just list the horn and any defects. Tell whether it plays well, show pictures of the valves and mention any dents and if there is any missing lacquer or plating. If anyone lists a horn as Refurbished or Reconditioned and their name is not Rich Ita, Charlie Melk, or Josh Landress I steer clear.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PNut wrote:
...autoparts clerk...

Wait. You were an autoparts clerk? That's gettin' up there!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBPoSOhlEhs
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

harryjamesworstnightmare wrote:
Don't use either of those terms. Just list the horn and any defects. Tell whether it plays well, show pictures of the valves and mention any dents and if there is any missing lacquer or plating. If anyone lists a horn as Refurbished or Reconditioned and their name is not Rich Ita, Charlie Melk, or Josh Landress I steer clear.


Yep. I agree with Harry.

Also, please see comments below:

- Soldered off the main tuning slide crook to release the slide. Repair.
- Penetrating oil to help remove the above and remainder slides. Part of the repair.
- Chemically cleaned the trumpet. Maintenance.
- Thoroughly washed trumpet w snake warm water and Dawn dish soap. Maintenance.
- Dried thoroughly. Maintenance.
- Buffed the tuning slides with compound and wick by hand. Maintenance.
- Soldered the crook back on the main tuning slide. Repair.
- Fixed a stuck piston valve. Repair.
- Cleaned piston valves and casings. Maintenance.
- Disassembled piston valves, to clean, and reassemble. Maintenance.
- Fixed water key and replaced corks. Repair and maintenance.
- Removed old remaining lacquer with Feree's gel remover. (Excellent stuff). Refurbished.
- Washed and dried again. Maintenance.
- Properly buffed entire external trumpet, some by hand. Maintenance.
- Polished entire trumpet, except tuning slide inserts. Maintenance.
- Purchased new Yamaha TR11B4 mouthpiece. Noted.
- Oiled piston valves. Maintenance.
- Greased slides. Maintenance.
- Reassembled trumpet. Implied.
- Tested for leaks. Implied.
- Play tested by local trumpet player. (I play alto sax). Noted.
- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny. Noted.
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PNut
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

harryjamesworstnightmare wrote:
Don't use either of those terms. Just list the horn and any defects. Tell whether it plays well, show pictures of the valves and mention any dents and if there is any missing lacquer or plating. If anyone lists a horn as Refurbished or Reconditioned and their name is not Rich Ita, Charlie Melk, or Josh Landress I steer clear.



That is really good advice.

Being mechanically inclined like my dad, when I came across this '55 Olds I was amazed in how good shape it was, so I watched many YouTube videos of Art's Brass and Woodwind Shop, and others before even considering trying to work on such a vintage horn.

Art is very thorough, explains things clearly, and is responsive to questions.

https://www.youtube.com/c/TheBrassandWoodwindShop

Wes Lee is another good one.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuppULfQv9Zl0Xu11HB-HUw

Matt Sohrer's videos were essential for my saxophone. I can now do most things on my own.

We all have to start somewhere. I was rather proud of the work done. As Art always says in his videos, "Slow and steady with a lot of patience."
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PNut
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
harryjamesworstnightmare wrote:
Don't use either of those terms. Just list the horn and any defects. Tell whether it plays well, show pictures of the valves and mention any dents and if there is any missing lacquer or plating. If anyone lists a horn as Refurbished or Reconditioned and their name is not Rich Ita, Charlie Melk, or Josh Landress I steer clear.


Yep. I agree with Harry.

Also, please see comments below:

- Soldered off the main tuning slide crook to release the slide. Repair.
- Penetrating oil to help remove the above and remainder slides. Part of the repair.
- Chemically cleaned the trumpet. Maintenance.
- Thoroughly washed trumpet w snake warm water and Dawn dish soap. Maintenance.
- Dried thoroughly. Maintenance.
- Buffed the tuning slides with compound and wick by hand. Maintenance.
- Soldered the crook back on the main tuning slide. Repair.
- Fixed a stuck piston valve. Repair.
- Cleaned piston valves and casings. Maintenance.
- Disassembled piston valves, to clean, and reassemble. Maintenance.
- Fixed water key and replaced corks. Repair and maintenance.
- Removed old remaining lacquer with Feree's gel remover. (Excellent stuff). Refurbished.
- Washed and dried again. Maintenance.
- Properly buffed entire external trumpet, some by hand. Maintenance.
- Polished entire trumpet, except tuning slide inserts. Maintenance.
- Purchased new Yamaha TR11B4 mouthpiece. Noted.
- Oiled piston valves. Maintenance.
- Greased slides. Maintenance.
- Reassembled trumpet. Implied.
- Tested for leaks. Implied.
- Play tested by local trumpet player. (I play alto sax). Noted.
- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny. Noted.


Yes, that does clarify proper terms. Thx!
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