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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 2:10 am Post subject: what is the importance of trumpet bore size? |
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Dear all,
As a beginner, I see a lot of mention of bore size. How exactly does it affect the sound or the ease of playing? Is a larger bore louder? Is it easier on bass notes ? Is it easier on high notes? What about small bore? What is considered small /average / large?
There are too many posts containing the keyword to really find an answer, so I thank you for your willingness to share your thoughts here.
Last edited by Satchel on Sun May 16, 2021 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2310 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:29 am Post subject: |
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That's actually a rather large involved question..
First of all as a beginner, I would suggest not to concern yourself with the details of the mouthpiece, except in an acedemic mode. Middle of the road mouthpiece and daily directed practice. (Bach 7, Yamaha 11B4, etc)
Then look up the "Conn Blue Booklet", pretty easy to find on the internet. It is a very nice description of all the elements of a mouthpiece.
"THE ORIFICE
If the cup volume stays the same and the size of the orifice is changed, the "resistance" of the mouthpiece is also changed. The larger the orifice, the greater the demands on the physical development of the embouchure. If the orifice becomes very large it is difficult to play a pianissimo, especially in the high register, but an over-all bigger volume of tone is possible. Usually, a medium sized orifice, matched to the rest of the mouthpiece, is desirable for producing an even response in all registers and a good intonation, plus endurance."
In the same booklet there is a graph showing what happens with tuning and resonance as the orifice is changed - thus, the reason many find a larger throat a better fit on their C trumpet vs their Bb. -> a shorter instrument with (ususally) a larger bore, is a better match to a mouthpiece with a larger throat amoung other things.
Stick with a good stock setup until your chops and musical abilities have matured (years) before you go down the slippery slope of changing aspects of mouthpieces. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:38 am Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by delano on Mon May 17, 2021 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:17 am Post subject: |
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I thank you for the answer regarding mouthpieces, but as Delano said, the question was more about the trumpet's bore size. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6126 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 5:54 am Post subject: |
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You should move this to the "horns" section. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:20 am Post subject: Re: what is the importance of trumpet bore size? |
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Satchel wrote: | Dear all,
As a beginner, I see a lot of mention of bore size. How exactly does it affect the sound or the ease of playing? Is a larger bore louder? Is it easier on bass notes ? Is it easier on high notes? What about small bore? What is considered small /average / large?
There are too many posts containing the keyword to really find an answer, so I thank you for your willingness to share your thoughts here. |
Bore size in itself has negligible impact on the playing characteristics of a horn. However, the design features that come with different bore sizes as a given manufacturer packages it can have quite profound effects.
For instance, Bach achieves the "L" bore with the same outer diameter tubing found on the ML bore horn by thinning the tube wall. With a difference in inner diameter between those two bores of only 0.003", how many burgers you had between horn cleanings could change the bore that much. But because the tubing making up much of the body of the horn is 6 to 8 percent lighter, the mass of the horn and thus the inertia decrease. This lets the horn speak easier when you start notes or change partials - of course, it also does those things easier when not intended too.
The idea that bore and air flow are related is false, so dont go down that dead-end path. The volumetric flow in the horn is determined by the throat at the base of the mouthpiece cup and the delta-pressure across it. Everything else is about energy it takes to get a given sound pressure back to your ears - in which lighter construction has both less inertia and more leak-back in the Bach example. More significantly, larger bores are often (not always) paired with deliberately lighter construction and less bracing - this creates freedoms in the horn that, depending on what works best for you, may aid or inhibit solid playing.
Bore size, like many aspects of horn design is just one element of a complex system. You cannot limit what will or wont work for you based on this any more than you can do so based on finish, or bell material, or weighted caps, etc. etc. To quote Roy Hempley, though in a very different context: "just when you think you have it figured out, a horn comes along to prove you wrong". Don't limit your choices - try everything you can. The horn you fall in love with will probably be one you never expected. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Here is a note about the irrelevance of bore size from Jim Donaldson's (RIP) writings:
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/B_flat_trumpets.html _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2310 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:38 am Post subject: |
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OH Man, sorry about that.. I guess the coffee hadn't kicked in this morning... I was stuck on mouthpieces, must have been a remnant of a dream / nightmare... _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 649 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Many people think that bore size had to do with the resistance you feel when playing the trumpet.
Well, as a matter of facts over here I have a few trumpets of several different bore sizes.
*1: Conn 22B 0.438"
*2: Getzen 700s Eterna 0.460
*3: Getzen 900 Eterna LB 0.464
*4: Getzen 900 Eterna mod. Severinsen LB 0.468
The resistance in the blow feels as tightest at the Getzen 700s, than less tight is both the Conn 22b and the Eterna 900 LB (go figure), the least resistance in the blow is the 900 Severinsen 0.468
The most 'open blow' I experieced was with a Getzen Eterna ML 0.460 from early 80's, it was that 'free blowin' that made me decide to sell her.
Bore size says very little, you have to try before you buy[/list] _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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yinzbrass Regular Member
Joined: 14 May 2021 Posts: 21 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph:
I had no idea large bore Bachs had thinner tubing. Thanks for the info. |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 649 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 11:39 am Post subject: |
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yinzbrass wrote: | OldSchoolEuph:
I had no idea large bore Bachs had thinner tubing. Thanks for the info. |
As do Getzen Eterna LB so nothing special about this _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for these replies. They debunk a few things I've read about that. |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 901
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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My experience with Bachs, Schilkes, and Getzens.
My large bore Bach Bb's (one New York, one Elkhart, one Mount Vernon) all play noticeably more open than my ML Elkhart Bach with a regular weight 72 bell, especially in the upper register. The New York has an original 7 leadpipe, all the others have standard 25 pipes.
My Schilke B3's all play noticeably more open than my Schilke B2's, again, especially in the upper register. The only difference between the B2 and B3 is the bore size. They share the same bells and it's my understanding that they also share leadpipes.
My Getzen Eterna Severinsen model is a ML and a very early one that had the conventional water keys. My Getzen LB is a post Severinsen Eterna 900 and it plays considerably more open than the ML. I don't know enough about the LB Eternas to know which are .464 and which are .468 bores. According to a telephone conversation I had with someone at the Getzen factory, the only difference between the ML and LB is in the leadpipe and the tuning slide.
There seems to be little argument that a Martin Committee #3 (large bore) plays much more open that the Committee #2 (medium bore). The difference in bore sizes is significant.
I realize that bore size is but just one factor in a horn's playability. I can only speak to my own experience as to how a larger bore size within a particular make of horn affects how the horns play. |
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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Adagio,
Perhaps I lack the jargon of trumpetists, but what does "play more open" mean? Does it mean louder? More in tune? Does it mean that to you it's "open" to more volume of airflow? Does it mean less effort? Easier on the lips, or on the lungs? Easier in certain pitches? |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 901
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Satchel wrote: | Adagio,
Perhaps I lack the jargon of trumpetists, but what does "play more open" mean? Does it mean louder? More in tune? Does it mean that to you it's "open" to more volume of airflow? Does it mean less effort? Easier on the lips, or on the lungs? Easier in certain pitches? |
Less resistance. The air moves more easily through the horn, especially when playing louder and/or higher. |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Here is what is posted on the yamaha website regarding this topic.
https://www.yamaha.com/en/musical_instrument_guide/trumpet/selection/selection002.html
Like others have said, I wouldn't get hung up on worrying about the bore size. That is just one parameter that a builder takes into account when designing a horn. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345 |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 519 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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adagiotrumpet wrote: | Satchel wrote: | Adagio,
Perhaps I lack the jargon of trumpetists, but what does "play more open" mean? Does it mean louder? More in tune? Does it mean that to you it's "open" to more volume of airflow? Does it mean less effort? Easier on the lips, or on the lungs? Easier in certain pitches? |
Less resistance. The air moves more easily through the horn, especially when playing louder and/or higher. |
Not to bring up another point of contention, but airflow through the trumpet is not how the trumpet works
The air speed past the mouthpiece is negligible. The air molecules inside a brass instrument function like waves in a pond or a skipping rope, not water from a hose.
They vibrate in place sending energy back and forth through the instrument, reflecting between the lips and just past the bell.
And, in regards to Committee bore sizes, as far as I know, the 3 different bores also had slightly different bell and leadpipe tapers to go along with them. _________________ www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by delano on Mon May 17, 2021 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 649 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 12:41 am Post subject: |
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adagiotrumpet wrote: |
According to a telephone conversation I had with someone at the Getzen factory, the only difference between the ML and LB is in the leadpipe and the tuning slide. |
No. The outer diameter is the same for both the ML and L bore Getzen Eterna, the inner diameter of the L bore is bigger so the tubing of the L bore instrument is thinner
I suppose that you have a false memorie; the ML Severinsen models came with two tuning slides, a ML bore and a L bore tuning slide so the buyer could fine tune his / her instrument to personal taste _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:40 am Post subject: |
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It seems the consensus is broken and we have some conflicting answers. The answer of Adagiotrumpet and the diagram on the Yamaha website directly contradict the answers of OldschoolEuph and Divitt Trumpets.
adagiotrumpet wrote: | Less resistance. The air moves more easily through the horn, especially when playing louder and/or higher. |
Divitt Trumpets wrote: | airflow through the trumpet is not how the trumpet works. The air speed past the mouthpiece is negligible. The air molecules inside a brass instrument function like waves in a pond or a skipping rope, not water from a hose. |
OldSchoolEuph wrote: | The idea that bore and air flow are related is false, so dont go down that dead-end path. The volumetric flow in the horn is determined by the throat at the base of the mouthpiece cup and the delta-pressure across it. |
In practice, from a player perspective, all other things being equal, with the same mouthpiece, I wanted to know if it is particularly difficult or more easy to blow into a 0.438" bore trumpet or , say, a 0.468". Manuel de los Campos said from experience it's irrelevant.
At the moment I'm inclined to believe it is irrelevant. |
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