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what is the importance of trumpet bore size?


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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's get back to bore size.

Bore has VERY little to do by itself with how the horn plays, but in concert with other factors, like every element of the system, does (just not in a single-variable predictor way as was sought in the original question).

A few thousandths of an inch in bore diameter may shift the location of nodal points, making a horn of the same design otherwise have a different intonation profile (especially if you just swage out the end of the leadpipe .003" to make it fit...), - but those same few thousandths will not make the difference between loose and tight centering.

A few thousandths of an inch in the ID by themselves will not make a horn of the same design require significantly less energy to respond - but those same few thousandths if taken from the tube wall lightening the body 6%, will.

A few thousandths of an inch in ID will not make a horn of the same design differ in terms of being "open" or "tight", - but if those same few thousandths move the nodal points relative to a brace changing the nature of the coupling, then the efficiency aspect of the resistance profile may be altered (a bit, and frequency-dependently).

A few thousandths in the valve ports are unlikely to ever do anything ( which is why so many valve jobs are done without plugging the ports), but take .003 off the thickness of the bell, and you will see a dramatic response difference as well as increased tendency toward edge when pushed.

A few thousandths of inner diameter is what you lose to corrosion over the decades, and what you gain in a fairly short time from pizza during the gig. Can it have effects, sure. Are they consistent or predictable in isolation - not remotely.
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Satchel
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
how many burgers you had between horn cleanings could change the bore that much.

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
A few thousandths of inner diameter is what you lose to corrosion over the decades, and what you gain in a fairly short time from pizza during the gig.

I didn't understand the first time you mentioned food, I'm not sure I understand the second time either. Are you talking about deposit bits of food actually finding their way into the trumpet and decorating the inner tube?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Satchel wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
how many burgers you had between horn cleanings could change the bore that much.

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
A few thousandths of inner diameter is what you lose to corrosion over the decades, and what you gain in a fairly short time from pizza during the gig.

I didn't understand the first time you mentioned food, I'm not sure I understand the second time either. Are you talking about deposit bits of food actually finding their way into the trumpet and decorating the inner tube?


Well long term that would be true, but my point is that fatty foods eaten while playing will coat the inside of the tube reducing its diameter by as much or more than we are talking about in some of these bore size comparisons.
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40cal
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Let's get back to bore size.

Bore has VERY little to do by itself with how the horn plays, but in concert with other factors, like every element of the system, does (just not in a single-variable predictor way as was sought in the original question).


This is so true (in my limited experience). There are so many variables, bore size being just one of them. These days when I try new/different horns the bore size is one of the last things I would inquire about.

Just my 2 cents worth of info.
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JWG
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a different perspective and see bore size as important to ease of expression. Having have a half dozen trumpets of various bore size in my home, I find my larger bore horns have a larger "sound palette" and more easily play expressively on lyrical passages. For this reason, I prefer my large bore trumpets to the smaller bore trumpets for most playing situations.

If I had to become a high note specialist, I would likely chose smaller bore horns and shallower mouthpieces. My son has a small bore Conn that just screams high notes with great ease, but it feels tight and too bright for my preferred sound concept when trying to play expressively.

As for the reason why large bore horns have this expressive trait, I speculate that their slightly greater internal volume gives their standing waves more ways to resonate sympathetically to players' vocal and oral cavity modulations.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWG wrote:
As for the reason why large bore horns have this expressive trait, I speculate that their slightly greater internal volume gives their standing waves more ways to resonate sympathetically to players' vocal and oral cavity modulations.


When you look at the more drastic example, lets say an antique Conn against a Wild Thing, this seems plausible

Large Bore – 0.470” – cross-sectional area = 0.1735sq.in.
Small Bore – 0.438” – cross-sectional area = 0.1507sq.in.
Difference in cross-sectional area = 0.0228sq.in.
Pre-bell volumetric difference is 13%

However, players report equally significant playing differences between an ML bore Bach and an L bore Bach. . .

Large Bore – 0.462” – cross-sectional area = 0.1676sq.in.
ML Bore – 0.459” – cross-sectional area = 0.1655sq.in.
Difference in cross-sectional area = 0.0021sq.in.
Pre-bell volumetric difference is 1.3%

Its not the dimension, its everything that comes along with.



(remarkably, no one ever seems to mention differences between the ML bore Bach and the M bore Bach (0.459" vs 0.453") - except for Roy Hempley who preferred the M-bore 37. It is remarkable because uniquely, the M-bore taper progression is significantly different from the other examples due to the nature of the Bach 25 leadpipe, yet no one seems to mention this pairing)
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWG wrote:
...
As for the reason why large bore horns have this expressive trait, I speculate that their slightly greater internal volume gives their standing waves more ways to resonate sympathetically to players' vocal and oral cavity modulations.

------------------------------
It would be interesting (from scientific and physics viewpoint) to know whether 'more ways to resonate' actually is possible in some instruments - and how the player can control/choose how to employ that ability.
The nearest info that I was able to find is from this physics undergrad paper -

https://etd.ohiolink.edu/apexprod/rws_etd/send_file/send?accession=ouhonors1587991088883357&disposition=inline

My guess is that an instrument that is very 'tight slotting' has a very narrow band of frequencies that will 'resonate' for each note, and that a 'loose slotting' instrument will have a wider band that will resonate.
The 'tight slotting' helps 'get the right note' if the player's initial pitch is a little 'off' because the instrument 'forces' the player to adjust for the instrument's narrow pitch slot.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWG wrote:
I have a different perspective and see bore size as important to ease of expression. Having have a half dozen trumpets of various bore size in my home, I find my larger bore horns have a larger "sound palette" and more easily play expressively on lyrical passages. For this reason, I prefer my large bore trumpets to the smaller bore trumpets for most playing situations.

If I had to become a high note specialist, I would likely chose smaller bore horns and shallower mouthpieces. My son has a small bore Conn that just screams high notes with great ease, but it feels tight and too bright for my preferred sound concept when trying to play expressively.

As for the reason why large bore horns have this expressive trait, I speculate that their slightly greater internal volume gives their standing waves more ways to resonate sympathetically to players' vocal and oral cavity modulations.


The problem with your analysis is that none of the instruments are the same.
To properly compare the effects of bore, you need two of the same model in 2 bore sizes.

Brace placement, bell thickness, flare diameter, leadpipe and bell taper, venturi, gap etc etc etc all have extremely drastic effects on the instrument, so a medium bore Conn will of course play differently than a large bore Bach

For me, one of the biggest sounds I've ever had was when playing a Conn 8b Artist. That's definitely not a large bore.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWG wrote:
If I had to become a high note specialist, I would likely chose smaller bore horns and shallower mouthpieces.


I was thinking about this and I remembered that most of the Holton Maynard models, which provide significant resistance to push against, which helps many players play higher easier, are .468-bore.

The mechanism by which that resistance is achieved was a very ingenious, low-cost yet highly effective exploitation of the bore size and the leadpipe matched to it (designer Larry Ramirez).

So the large bore was a factor in making those horns screamers, but as always, in the unique geometry it supported the creation of at one specific point in the horn, not at all as a result of volumetric space.
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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One place to look for clues about bore size effects is the much simpler case of a straight tube the length of a trumpet. In 1868, G. Kirchhoff (same Kirchhoff EEs know about) published a solution to the problem of acoustic waves in narrow tubes "that account for the effects of both air viscosity and thermal conductivity in tubes of arbitrary diameter". The air viscosity effect is also known as 'skin effect', and accounts for how friction affects the movement of air touching the walls. The thermal conductivity of the tube walls is important because the air temperature rises as the air compresses. This causes an energy loss when the hotter air is cooled by the colder walls.

Dealing with the differential equations involved would have been a challenge for me 40 years ago as a physics student. Today it would be next to impossible. So instead, I did some direct measurements.

I found two tubes in the scrap pile that have bores similar to trumpets: .395 silicone and .465 steel. I have a Benge 5C cornet mouthpiece with a speaker glued in place of lips. The speaker is from a Sony headset and fits the mouthpiece perfectly. A Rode videomicro microphone records the other end.

An amazing result is that with my Asus motherboard integrated sound card and this setup, frequencies from 4-40KHz can be detected using a sampling rate of 192,000 per second. The 30-2000 Hz tones I use are a piece of cake for this setup.

This is all a work in progress. I hope to learn something about different horns using this setup (I need to sell some but which ones?).

Here are plots of the response for both tubes. The frequency scale has been stretched and shifted slightly to make the harmonics fall where expected. The stretch is as much as 3% and the shift as much as 38 Hz. On a trumpet/cornet, similar adjustments are needed, though in opposite direction from straight tubing. I believe the adjustment is needed for brass instruments because a player's lips have more mass than that of the speaker diaphragm. The adjustment is needed for straight tubing because straight tubing is known to not hit the 1,2,3, ... harmonics perfectly.

So far this test shows clear differences between the two tube bores, though the differences are not great:





For actual trumpets, the plots look similar. The biggest difference is that the peaks/valleys are much degraded starting at a little past high C.

The smaller bore silicone tube shows an overall stronger output. I need to repeat this test to make sure there was no difference in microphone placement.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting, but unfortunately you have two variables with the difference in material. Can you repeat this test with two identical lengths of different diameter tubing of identical material (alloy, wall thickness)? I am thinking hobby center brass tubing, or "Tygon" vinyl from the hardware, or stainless tubing from an industrial supplier where you can specify 316 with an .065 wall as options. Hardness, density and thickness (local mass) are all going to affect how the wave interfaces with the raceway wall (both the viscosity-related, and the thermal vectors are affected)

Also, how do you account for the fixed size of the speaker relative to initiating the wave in the tubes of differing diameter?

I think examining the spectral distribution at each initiating frequency to account for the relative amplitude of overtones (assuming this air column is resonating) might yield additional insight as well (which would be similar to the commercially available systems researchers use for this with actual instruments).
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Satchel
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
If you want to look at a lot of old horns and see this progression, you can look at the virtual museum on my site (www.trumpet-history.com).


Thank you for your answer and the link. Your website is a treasure of information!
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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
This is interesting, but unfortunately you have two variables with the difference in material. Can you repeat this test with two identical lengths of different diameter tubing of identical material

Yes, I need to do this. So much scrap in the garage, yet most too short or too narrow or buried too deeply to retrieve easily.

Quote:
Also, how do you account for the fixed size of the speaker relative to initiating the wave in the tubes of differing diameter?

Even for the tubing test, I used the mouthpiece with the speaker glued on. It took some teflon tape to make a tight fit with the larger steel tube. I did do one test with no mouthpiece. I just placed the speaker a mm or two from the tube opening. It did show resonances, but the output was faint and signal to noise ratio suffered.

Quote:
I think examining the spectral distribution at each initiating frequency to account for the relative amplitude of overtones (assuming this air column is resonating) might yield additional insight as well (which would be similar to the commercially available systems researchers use for this with actual instruments).

The input is a 7 minute wave file containing an ascending sequence of tones from 30 to 2000 Hz. The step is 1/60 of a harmonic, resulting in 1015 tones. Each tone is a pure sine wave of length 90 cycles or 250 ms, whichever is bigger.
The 1015 tones are recovered from the recorded output, and trimmed to remove to starting and ending 10%. Each tone is then processed with FFT to find the frequencies within. The strongest frequency is logged, along with the RMS average of all other frequencies. The FFT result agrees with what the human ear hears: when a pure sine wave is played into the mouthpiece of a trumpet, a pure sine wave of the same frequency comes out the bell. The only thing the trumpet does to the sine wave is attenuate its level depending on frequency.

Just like with the passive linear electronic circuit analogy, the trumpet cannot produce harmonics. The harmonics originate from the lips slapping together in the mouthpiece.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beyond16 wrote:
... Each tone is a pure sine wave of length 90 cycles or 250 ms, whichever is bigger.
...
Each tone is then processed with FFT to find the frequencies within. The strongest frequency is logged, along with the RMS average of all other frequencies. The FFT result agrees with what the human ear hears: when a pure sine wave is played into the mouthpiece of a trumpet, a pure sine wave of the same frequency comes out the bell. The only thing the trumpet does to the sine wave is attenuate its level depending on frequency.

Just like with the passive linear electronic circuit analogy, the trumpet cannot produce harmonics. The harmonics originate from the lips slapping together in the mouthpiece.

--------------------------------
I'm very interested in this, but confused ...

If the 'trumpet cannot produce harmonics', what is the source of the 'all other frequencies' when a pure sine wave is introduced by the speaker?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beyond16 wrote:
Just like with the passive linear electronic circuit analogy, the trumpet cannot produce harmonics. The harmonics originate from the lips slapping together in the mouthpiece.


I'm struggling a bit with this. I agree that timbre depends largely on how we color the spectrum of the, essentially pink noise, created at the embouchure, but to say that the trumpet will not produce overtones does not align with my understanding.

A pure sine wave can exist in electronics and in data, but when you drive a coil with that sine wave it motivates the membrane stretched across it in a speaker to resonate. Once that solid begins resonating, pushing out pressure waves in a 3-dimensional fluid, you are going to get overtones there. Then, if that is the energy input to a resonant air column in trumpet, it should, I believe, set up a standing wave in the horn, resonating the air column between source and reflection at the bell flare. If the frequency is aligned to the length of the trumpet (valve selection), then it should strongly resonate. If it is not harmonically aligned, then very little resonance should result and the trumpet becomes simply a conduit (overall sound pressure resulting then being dramatically lower).

Anyway, that's how I understand this, but its not my strong suit by any means, so I may be missing some pieces to the puzzle.
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
... in a speaker to resonate. Once that solid begins resonating, pushing out pressure waves in a 3-dimensional fluid, you are going to get overtones there. Then, if that is the energy input to a resonant air column in trumpet, it should, I believe, set up a standing wave in the horn, resonating the air column between source and reflection at the bell flare. If the frequency is aligned to the length of the trumpet (valve selection), then it should strongly resonate. ...

------------------------
That is similar to my understanding.
But I thought that when the initial sound/pressure (e.g. sine) wave had a 'wave length' that would resonate in the trumpet, that the harmonics associated with that wave length (pitch/frequency) would also occur and have their own standing waves.
And the precision with which the anti-nodes of the various standing waves align would determine the overall 'tone quality' and the degree to which the loudness of the various harmonics pitches was reinforced.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
But I thought that when the initial sound/pressure (e.g. sine) wave had a 'wave length' that would resonate in the trumpet, that the harmonics associated with that wave length (pitch/frequency) would also occur and have their own standing waves.
And the precision with which the anti-nodes of the various standing waves align would determine the overall 'tone quality' and the degree to which the loudness of the various harmonics pitches was reinforced.


Makes sense to me (OK, in that saying that implies solid comprehension on my part, I may be exaggerating...)
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mm55
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The signal produced by the lips is definitely not pink noise, nor is it really a sine wave either. As the lips rapidly open and close at the aperture, a series of pressure pulses is generated. If you plot the pressure vs time, you'll see a clearly periodic wave. Nothing at all like the time-domain signature of pink noise. But it won't be a sine wave either; a bit more like a saw-tooth wave.

There are definitely upper harmonics in this signal, which is what makes its shape quite different from a sine wave. A sine wave has no harmonics other than the fundamental. Note that these are harmonics of the note being played, while the horn itself has a different resonant frequency with its own set of harmonics. These two harmonic series can sometimes be confused with each other.

Both the overtone-rich excitation signal from the lips, and the harmonics of the trumpet length (as selected by the valves), contribute to the shape of the wave that comes out of the bell; but the final signal at the bell has essentially the same harmonic-series frequencies as the buzzing lips in the mouthpiece.
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the 'trumpet cannot produce harmonics', what is the source of the 'all other frequencies' when a pure sine wave is introduced by the speaker?


He didn't say such. Sine wave in , sine wave out.

He is "sweeping" the sine wave frequencies and it reveals the the resonance modes of the tube or instrument.

The lip pulsation is a non-sinusoidal pressure pulse, the harmonics transmit out of the bell, they do not resonate. Only the fundamental pitch resonates.

Quote:
But I thought that when the initial sound/pressure (e.g. sine) wave had a 'wave length' that would resonate in the trumpet, that the harmonics associated with that wave length (pitch/frequency) would also occur and have their own standing waves.


No. A pure sine wave input has no harmonics. And any harmonics from a non-sinusoidal input simply transmit through and out the bell, they are not "standing" waves.

Quote:
And the precision with which the anti-nodes of the various standing waves align would determine the overall 'tone quality' and the degree to which the loudness of the various harmonics pitches was reinforced.


Again, there are not "various" standing waves. There is ONE, and it is at the fundamental pitch played. And the alignment can not vary for harmonic frequencies. They are always perfectly aligned or they aren't harmonics.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
He is "sweeping" the sine wave frequencies and it reveals the the resonance modes of the tube or instrument.

The lip pulsation is a non-sinusoidal pressure pulse, the harmonics transmit out of the bell, they do not resonate. Only the fundamental pitch resonates.

...

Again, there are not "various" standing waves. There is ONE, and it is at the fundamental pitch played. And the alignment can not vary for harmonic frequencies. They are always perfectly aligned or they aren't harmonics.


This now needs an explanation of harmonic and enharmonic overtones, or it leaves one very confused. (please)
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