Trumpet valve compression comparison

[adms]

I've read some of what's been said about valve compression, especially the note at https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=155766 about older instruments having looser valve casings to allow note "lipping," but I was wondering if anyone had an A/B test of how a trumpet plays differently with tight valves vs loose ones, all other things being equal.

Some background. I have a 1948 King Master Cornet. Good quality instrument. Stays pretty well in tune through the scale (for me, an amateur), but terrible valve compression as measured by plugging the slide and blowing / listening for a hiss or by the valve pop listed at http://www.thetrumpetblog.com/trumpet-valve-tightness-and-compression-issues/. It hisses when I blow and the pop for the valves goes away after almost no time at all.

On the other hand, I have an Allora pocket trumpet. Inexpensive. Fairly new. It has fantastic compression on the blow test (no hissing) and a slide / valve pop of several seconds for the 3rd valve. At the same time, it drifts across tuning through the scale (I know, it's a pocket trumpet, but bear with me).

The question is, if I rewound time and went back to when the King Master was new and had tighter valves, how would the experience change? Better intonation? Better note centering? Easier cold note starting? Would it just make it hard to lip it into tune in the places where I need to?

Thanks in advance,
Adam

[Billy B]

Simply the difference between a quality instrument and junk.

And this should be under "horns" not pedagogy.
_________________
Bill Bergren

[adms]

Yikes. My mistake on the category. I was on another topic and clicked the new topic button. Is there a way to move it to where it ought to be?

As to the reply, the question concerns the fact that the good horn has terrible valve compression and the inexpensive one has good compression. How would the high quality horn perform differently with good compression, or is compression not much of a factor in determining playing quality until the valves are so loose they bind?

Thanks, and sorry again for the forum faux pas.

[Goby]

After having the valves rebuilt on a few vintage Bach Strads (effectively restoring valve tolerances to like-new or better-than-new), I noticed a more dense sound, better slotting/centering of notes, better articulation, improved low and high register, and an all-around improved playing experience. If you were to have the valves rebuilt on your King Master, you'd notice an improvement in nearly all aspects of playing, and in my opinion, no drawbacks (other than the cost).


"lipping" notes in tune is not a sustainable way of playing. Just use the valve slides; it will help your endurance and evenness of sound quality.

[adms]

@goby I appreciate the response. That answers the question.

I know you can re-plate and re-lap valves, but what about casings? Do they re-plate those if the wear is on that side? I read the paragraph at Getzen:

"With a bearing surface, it’s ideal for one to be surface be much harder than the other. This leads to consistent wear of both pieces and longer overall life. Harder pistons are preferred because worn casings are easier to repair. In the case of nickel pistons, it’s relatively easy to replate them slightly oversized and relap them into the worn valve casings to repair the valve section. Repair would be more costly and time consuming with worn out pistons."

I would think worn pistons would be the easier fix since you can remove and replate them, but perhaps I'm missing something. With worn casings, what do you do when you wear through (or is this not a practical concern)?

Where did you get your re-plating done?

Thanks for the info.

[dr_trumpet]

Pistons are replated, not casings. They are two separate metals, and the wear is such that the piston is often larger in diameter once replated, and they are fit to the casing. Sometimes, a casing has to be bored for an oversize piston when they are replaced. My third valve on a Bach 37 I have owned for 41 years was damaged in 1985. I sent it to Anderson's, and they put a slightly oversized piston into the valve and made it fit. It has been perfect for the 36 years since.

I am not sure that Anderson's does all of that work any more, so there are a few really good repair folks with great reputations on here. Some are present on this site, so I will let them speak for themselves.

AL
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music

[JayKosta]

[Andy Cooper]

[ebolton]

Given the tiny clearances and thin metal in a trumpet piston valve casing, I think the casings are probably honed (an abrasive process) rather than "bored" (a cutting process)? This is probably just jargon to a musician but it matters to us manufacturing types.

Never having seriously worked on a trumpet in my life, if I had to do a "valve job" on one I think I'd start by honing the casings to get them round, then plating the pistons to bring the size up, then probably another abrasive turning process on the pistons to fit the casings. I envision something like a tool post grinder on a lathe.

But this is a stupid reply because I'm just speculating.
_________________
-Ed

[OldSchoolEuph]

[yourbrass]

[PMonteiro]

Anybody who's read my recent posts knows that I like to talk/complain about my Blessing. It has almost nonexistent valve compression, yet it has the best lower register of any of my horns. It sounds decent in the mid range, but above the staff is like playing into a brick wall. For comparison, my best horn (YTR-6335H) has excellent compression and plays well in all registers. Its lower register is a bit less secure than the Blessing, but there's no way of knowing if that's because of valve compression.

TLDR: horn with bad compression has a great lower register but terrible upper register. Horn with great compression plays well in all registers. FWIW.
_________________
YTR-6335HSII
YTR-2320
Accord in C

[Winghorn]

Many of us are probably aware of the story about Mendez trying out the prototype Olds Mendez model trumpets.

Apparently, Olds had tried just about everything to produce an instrument that would please him but had had no luck. In desperation, they measured the valve clearance on the old French Besson trumpet Mendez had been playing and found that the valves were very worn and loose.

Olds set up a prototype Mendez trumpet with equally leaky valves and Mendez loved it. He had apparently gotten used to the response of the excessively loose valves over the years. Production Mendez models had valves that were nice and tight, I believe.

I am not sure what to make of this, but it seems different players may respond in different ways to a trumpet's valve fit.

In my own case, I had a Burbank Benge trumpet with pretty poor valve compression that nonetheless played beautifully. My instructor at the time, the principal of a major symphony, agreed. After having the valves refitted, the horn was a dog.

Since then, all my horns have had tight valves and I like it that way.

Steve

[yourbrass]

[OldSchoolEuph]

[mike ansberry]

[GeronPG]

A story that I think fits here: a friend, a strong lead player with a strong high range, had played a Besson Meha (post-war, early 50's manufacture, I believe)_ for years. He tried other horns, always went back to the Meha. He used a lot of air, and it felt "free blowing" to him.
At some point the valves were worn enough that he had it rebuilt, and hated it afterwards, so much that he sold it. He'd evidently gotten used to the blow/feel of the "loose" tolerances.
He sold it to a mutual friend, that friend passed way too young, and I bought it from the estate.
It's my lead horn for big band. I'm not a monster player, but it serves me well. It's kind of deceptive, it "speaks" and projects well. You don't hear it when you're playing, but you can hear it off the back wall, if there is one. And I end up less tired playing it on a gig. Every now and then I try one of my other trumpets for lead work, and end up going back to the Meha, too.
I think we all "adjust" to our horns and get used to them. As they wear and change gradually, it's probably imperceptible to us, until it gets really bad, or we play another horn and feel the difference.
_________________
Geron Gambill
Fayetteville, NC

Bach 43 lightweight w/ 43 leadpipe
Bach Flugelhorn
Bach C large bore
Benge (LA) D
Stomvi Elite Piccolo
Yamaha Cornet
Schmidt (B & S) 37LTDS
Besson Meha (early '50's)