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TheAidanAU Regular Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2021 Posts: 49 Location: Virginia, USA
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 5:58 pm Post subject: Bending mouthpieces |
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Hello everyone,
I have noticed that when I hold my trumpet naturally, the bell is pointing slightly downwards. I am in marching band, and I need to hold my trumpet at around a 95 degree angle. The problem is that when holding my trumpet up at a 95 degree angle, I have to bring my whole head up, and it makes my playing very tense. I have seen a couple of people bend their mouthpieces so the horn is facing up, even when their head is resting in their natural playing position. I have a 7c, a Bach 7c, and a Bach 3c that I am getting in a couple of days. I am wondering if I should bend my mouthpiece (most likely at a repair shop) so I can play in a natural position. |
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Winghorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Some people can play bent mouthpieces, but I can't.
The mouthpiece pressure and distribution of the pressure on the lips are different, and the mouthpiece tends to slide down on the lips while playing because the lower rim recedes back from the upper rim when the horn is held straight out.
Also, you have to make sure that the mouthpiece orientation is always the same while playing. But..
It may work for you. I would try bending a "junk" mouthpiece first before risking a good one in case you don't like the results.
The late jazz great Shorty Rogers played a bent mouthpiece and I have seen former Maynard lead player Patrick Hession play a mouthpiece that is quite bent.
Good luck! |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 3:21 am Post subject: |
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I've had a few mouthpieces bent and pre-ordered them bent. It will help you with projection and even out the distribution of pressure on your lips. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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JeffM729 Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 442 Location: Parrish, FL
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Try to get your horn up by arching your back and keeping your arms and shoulders in the same position. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Winghorn wrote: | The mouthpiece pressure and distribution of the pressure on the lips are different, and the mouthpiece tends to slide down on the lips while playing because the lower rim recedes back from the upper rim when the horn is held straight out. |
A bent mouthpiece will change the distribution of pressure on your lips... if you don't change the angle of the horn against your chops. That's kinda the point.
I've played bent mouthpieces for decades and have bent quite a few Bach mouthpieces with three pieces of wood and a bench vice, so it doesn't have to be expensive rocket science.
And I've never had the "sliding down" issue. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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Winghorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well, some personal experiences by those who took the time to respond to this thread.
The vast majority of players do not use bent mouthpieces- this should tell you something.
When a player who normally points his horn down while playing applies pressure, the horn is being "pushed" into to the chops at an upward angle- an angle that corresponds to the tilt of the instrument.
When a player uses a bent mouthpiece to make the horn level when playing, any pressure he applies goes horizontally into the lips. Many players can feel the difference and may or may not like it.
Best thing for the OP to do is just try a bent mouthpiece and see if it works. Descriptions by posters, my own included, of how a bent mouthpiece works for them are useless because every player is different. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Playing with a bent mouthpiece is not unusual. Miles Davis, Patrick Hession, Charlie Porter, Dontae Winslow, to name a few. I used to play a bent mouthpiece. You get used to it pretty quickly. Your body can naturally adjust without much time as long as you don't overthink it. The only thing is it can look kind of strange, and theres no going back once you have bent a mouthpiece. I had 3 mouthpieces bent and now that I no longer play bent mouthpieces, I sold those. |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 12:30 am Post subject: |
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Winghorn wrote: |
When a player who normally points his horn down while playing applies pressure, the horn is being "pushed" into to the chops at an upward angle- an angle that corresponds to the tilt of the instrument. |
Not when the player who should have a downward angle forces a horizontal one. That results in more pressure on the upper lip and more pressure in general. The bent mouthpiece allows the player to have the desired projection angle but still use his or her nature posture and horn position. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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Mike Prestage Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 Posts: 722 Location: Hereford, UK
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 12:55 am Post subject: |
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JeffM729 wrote: | Try to get your horn up by arching your back and keeping your arms and shoulders in the same position. |
I'm not disputing that this works for you, but if I'm trying to artificially raise my horn angle, it has much less of a negative impact on my playing if I tilt at my hips and keep my neck, shoulders and back as close as I can to my normal playing posture.
Mike |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 6:23 am Post subject: |
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I use bent mouthpieces. It has turned out much better for me than I could have imagined.
I play with my horn angled down. My very first teacher got me playing that way. He told me that was natural for me.
No other teacher tried changing that. In fact, at some point while studying with them I would casually ask if they thought I would be better off changing. All said that there was no need.
My sound went no where in carpeted churches and when playing outside on grass.
Bent mouthpieces not only fixed that issue, but as a bonus, distributed the weight more evenly on my embouchure. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 6:49 am Post subject: |
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For Aidan,
You can try using your jaw to exert a little rim pressure on your lower lip and teeth. It doesn't have to be much actual movement distance, just a little.
I think that many 'down angle' players don't use much control of their jaw position. They apply rim pressure on the upper lip, and lower the mouthpiece angle to achieve some pressure on the the lower lip.
USING jaw position to adjust pressure on the upper and lower lips is important to learn and control. Relying on only upper lip pressure will limit your range and can cause lip pain and injury.
And yes of course a bent mouthpiece can help produce the 'look' and sound projection that the director wants. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Smokin Joe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 594 Location: Somerset, Mass.
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: |
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My son had a 10 degree bend in his mouthpieces in high school and had no problem playing with them! |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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I used a bent one for some time. There was an adjustment period where the manipulations we all make with horn angle, pressure, motion, etc. felt weird, but it didn’t take long to adapt. You are kind of locked into a certain clocking of the mouthpiece, so keep that in mind if you’re superstitious. A decent repairman can bend one for relatively cheap. If you have a favorite mouthpiece that has superpowers for you, I’d wait on bending that specific mouthpiece until you are comfortable with the change. |
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Benson Regular Member
Joined: 14 Feb 2017 Posts: 35
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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For marching band I started to bend the leadpipe of my beater horn in 11th grade. It's cheaper and made playing so much easier! However, when I sent it out at the end of each season to get a bath, the leadpipe always came back straight. I'd just re-bend it next fall. It worked from 11th grade through 3 years of college marching band. I gave the horn to a high school kid who had his horn stolen. I must not have had it cleaned after that season because his director asked him why he was playing with his horn popped all the time. I guess that student didn't need the leadpipe bent... _________________ Benson |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | USING jaw position to adjust pressure on the upper and lower lips is important to learn and control. Relying on only upper lip pressure will limit your range and can cause lip pain and injury. |
Trying to use jaw position to raise my bell angle resulted in a TMJ injury that messed me up for years. Fine, you're talking about adjusting pressure, but the fact is I was trying to raise my horn angle and "adjust pressure" with my jaw position. It resulted in injury.
A few years ago I was graciously given a free trumpet lesson by a veteran pro trumpet player who has lots of students who rave about his teaching skills. Again, it was a gracious gesture on his part -- he saw me playing lead trumpet in a big band led by one of his long-time friends and I simply wasn't playing up to his standards.
The lesson basically began and ended with my not being able to "thrust" my lower jaw forward and then clench my teeth. Not only did my previous TMJ injury preclude his required jaw thrust, but my snaggle-tooth dentition (my parents couldn't afford braces for cosmetically perfect teeth when I was a kid) made for an absolute no-go on any sort of jaw-closure with my lower jaw pushed forward.
This esteemed pro asked me how old I was. Upon being informed that I was in my mid-forties, he declared that if I was 15 to 20 years younger his recommendation would have been to get jaw surgery followed by braces. At my age, his advice was to give up on being a lead player and work on my solo chops.
At 57, I play lead in several bands that accept my limitations while playing on a bent mouthpiece. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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Winghorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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The OP did not indicate he had any problems with his playing, so anecdotes from players who had problems that required a bent mouthpiece to correct don't seem that relevant. The OP just wants to look the part while playing in the marching band.
If the OP is serious about playing the trumpet, it seems a shame to screw around with a bent mouthpiece that could mess up his chops just to march. But obviously, he is entitled to play whatever equipment he chooses.
But again, only by personally trying to play on a bent mouthpiece will the OP know if it will work. Bent mouthpieces may not be that uncommon (although I've never played along side anyone who used one), the great majority of successful players do not use them. |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Given the choice between:
1. Bending a mouthpiece
2. Kicking out the jaw further
3. Tilting the head back or changing the natural posture substantially
4. Quitting marching band
Bending a mouthpiece is the least intrusive and simplest solution. It’s relatively cheap to do and only feels weird for just a few days. Just make sure to point the bend the right way. |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Winghorn wrote: | it seems a shame to screw around with a bent mouthpiece that could mess up his chops |
Playing a bent mouthpiece has never messed up anyone's chops. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:57 am Post subject: |
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nieuwguyski wrote: | Trying to use jaw position to raise my bell angle resulted in a TMJ injury that messed me up for years. Fine, you're talking about adjusting pressure, but the fact is I was trying to raise my horn angle and "adjust pressure" with my jaw position. It resulted in injury. ... |
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Thank you for commenting on your bad experience with changing jaw position.
I can certainly understand how excessive jaw thrust can cause problems.
My intend (hope) was that if the OP used a slight amount of controlled lower lip rim pressure that would result in the desired horn position - and also demonstrate its benefits for playing. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Winghorn wrote: | The OP did not indicate he had any problems with his playing, so anecdotes from players who had problems that required a bent mouthpiece to correct don't seem that relevant. The OP just wants to look the part while playing in the marching band. |
TheAidanAU wrote: | I am in marching band, and I need to hold my trumpet at around a 95 degree angle. The problem is that when holding my trumpet up at a 95 degree angle, I have to bring my whole head up, and it makes my playing very tense. |
I don't think the problem is that the OP *wants* to play the trumpet up at a 95 degree angle, I think it's because the OP is being *pressured* (or maybe even "required") to play the trumpet up at a 95 degree angle. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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