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Criteria for evaluating a new student trumpet?


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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since this links to a Jean Paul, I'm assuming the "author" is either trying to get referrals for selling these, or will refer to them on an article she writes, or is the manufacturer/distributor looking for advice (not necessarily bad, but probably not something most TH members would want to do).

In my opinion the #1 thing most parents should do is avoid buying instruments on Amazon and instead look for quality used instruments.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I agree with those who feel this thread might have purposes other than those stated, I disagree with the conclusion that frustrating that underlying intent would be the better course of action. I am sorry if that threatens Getzen business interests, as that is most certainly not the intent, but for better or worse, TH is a significant influencer with regard to how the key decision-makers in the subject market, namely uninformed parents looking to see if they can/should save a buck, arrive at a buying choice. That impacts the interest of all of us in protecting the art.

As such, this thread most likely will have far more impact on potential buyers than an obscure, and dubious, piece - the link here doubtless will focus more attention on that piece than it would ever gather otherwise. As such, it is critical to point out to the uniformed readers of this thread in the future that the content of that "review" is misleading. Point by point challenge of those inaccuracies is the best way to communicate to the target audience the truth.

Silence, like the ignorance it defends, only serves the interests of those who would mislead.
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
for better or worse, TH is a significant influencer with regard to how the key decision-makers in the subject market, namely uninformed parents looking to see if they can/should save a buck, arrive at a buying choice. That impacts the interest of all of us in protecting the art.

As such, this thread most likely will have far more impact on potential buyers than an obscure, and dubious, piece - the link here doubtless will focus more attention on that piece than it would ever gather otherwise.

This particular source might be obscure, but only because the people who run it are losing the search engine optimisation battle against their many competitors. I've just tried a few relevant Google searches, 'Jean Paul trumpet TR-330 review' etc, and the top twenty results I see* contain just one TH thread (which unluckily doesn't even look all that helpful) but loads of these pseudo-reviews. (Their real purpose is to earn the site operators a commission by linking to Amazon.)

Even traditional media are getting in on the act now: https://www.rollingstone.com/product-recommendations/lifestyle/best-trumpets-for-beginners-1030984/ An anonymous writer, allegedly one of Rolling Stone's 'editors', informs us that 'the TR-330’s smooth valves produce a surprisingly resonant sound.' You've got to laugh or you'll cry...

Mike

*I realise everyone's results can potentially be different but I'd struggle to believe that Google's pushing more of this stuff on me than the average person
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone who has provided constructive feedback so far--especially to @OldSchoolEuph as of late who has given us many details to refine, clarify and correct.

I will be working with our team over the next couple days to make those relevant changes.

In response to those who are dismissive or deploring review articles online that are poorly written, I understand where you're coming from. I recognize that there are dozens of sites out there reviewing instruments and writing outright false information about them.

My hope in asking for feedback here was to avoid having this article be just another such case of selling everyone to anyone without any regard for accuracy. Rather, I hope the article can fill what I see as a real knowledge gap in so far as how to properly appraise and choose a trumpet.

Much of the relevant information about trumpet sound, bell and valve construction and more--indeed, much of the information on this forum--simply isn't accessible online at the moment, which is where many people look to get it.

And I appreciate how many of you have helped me improve the article so far.
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steevo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever I see a "review"like this for an instrument, I immediately conclude that the audience is unsuspecting parents with little to no knowledge of instruments and are being given reasons to purchase a sub-standard product. I cringe at the thought that there are parents that will buy based on "reviews" like this.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify, neither this review or this trumpet are a threat toGetzen’s business interests. We do not offer a trumpet that would compare or compete on this level. The only threat is to the trumpet community and school music in general when unsuspecting parents turn to so called “experts” for recommendations. Potentially saddling their kids with subpar instruments that “many players” like.

This site is worth so much more than any review site looking to gain click throughs to Amazon. Asking for advice on terminology or proof reading is one thing. Claiming to be a professional musician writing a legitimate review but not knowing that lacquer doesn’t tarnish or what bore size does is something different. It’s as misleading as the USA in the brand name.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
Just to clarify, neither this review or this trumpet are a threat toGetzen’s business interests. We do not offer a trumpet that would compare or compete on this level. The only threat is to the trumpet community and school music in general when unsuspecting parents turn to so called “experts” for recommendations. Potentially saddling their kids with subpar instruments that “many players” like.

This site is worth so much more than any review site looking to gain click throughs to Amazon. Asking for advice on terminology or proof reading is one thing. Claiming to be a professional musician writing a legitimate review but not knowing that lacquer doesn’t tarnish or what bore size does is something different. It’s as misleading as the USA in the brand name.


This. ☝️

Brad
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post number 666 I am surprised that so many THers jumped onto this thread. Why would someone with absolutely no clue about trumpets (brass instruments?) start a review site on trumpets other than selling a lot of cheap stuff to a lot of other clueless people?

I understand that there is a market for cheap(er) instruments but there are tons of these “review” sites and those I have seen are all rubbish. If the site is to be meaningful at all, bring in a trumpet playing editor with some experience.

Here is an example of how a credible and reliable test site could look like (sorry, in German only). This guy puts a lot of work into his site but by doing so (and showing his trumpet abilities) has established credibility: https://trumpetscout.de/ and https://de-de.facebook.com/trumpetscout/

Having played a few Getzens and having owned a Getzen Eterna C for some time, I also agree with Brett G that Getzen and other quality makers need not be afraid of any of those low price horns. They simply don’t compare.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this looking at the horn on Amazon - it claims the authors are from Rolling Stone. It appears to contain the same complete mis-understandings of how a trumpet works and what it is. I am surprised that Rolling Stone would allow something like this to tarnish their brand, because it is really clear in the piece that the writer knew nothing - and that's not good for a music magazine empire to let show.

https://www.amazon.com/ospublishing/story/a2ac0717-80d7-480e-86d6-3b12477a978f/ref=sxin_10?cv_ct_pg=search&cv_ct_wn=osp-single-source-earns-comm&linkCode=oas&cv_ct_id=amzn1.osa.a2ac0717-80d7-480e-86d6-3b12477a978f.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&asc_contentid=amzn1.osa.a2ac0717-80d7-480e-86d6-3b12477a978f.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&cv_ct_we=article-page&qid=1623330355&ascsubtag=amzn1.osa.a2ac0717-80d7-480e-86d6-3b12477a978f.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&pf_rd_p=2a3243ce-188f-426b-9a7c-cd22d207971e&pf_rd_r=57D87APTZ4KVA57KA515&pd_rd_wg=RKKEg&pd_rd_w=XTUaL&tag=rsonsite-20&asc_contenttype=article&pd_rd_r=be6dea0a-0415-4b69-a5e6-452000fb4826&cv_ct_cx=bach+trumpet
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Ron Berndt
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
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1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
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1975 Olds Recording R-20
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning the 'RS Editors' - there is a facebook item at -

www.facebook.com/RollingStone/posts/rs-recommends-lets-our-writers-and-editors-gush-about-their-favorite-new-things-

that might give some information about those product recommendations.
I don't use FB , so I am not able to see the content of the item.
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I found this looking at the horn on Amazon - it claims the authors are from Rolling Stone.

That article really was published by Rolling Stone - the link in my previous post goes to it on their website. Sadly, I suspect the decision to churn out stuff like this under the magazine's name isn't down to incompetence but just cynicism (or pragmatism, depending on perspective!) in line with how media routinely works now.

Jay, that link opens the main Rolling Stone page on Facebook - it's not clear if it used to go to an article.

Mike
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I found this looking at the horn on Amazon - it claims the authors are from Rolling Stone. It appears to contain the same complete mis-understandings of how a trumpet works and what it is. I am surprised that Rolling Stone would allow something like this to tarnish their brand, because it is really clear in the piece that the writer knew nothing - and that's not good for a music magazine empire to let show.

That article is exactly what Brett was talking about.

Best trumpets you can buy online? Lol.

They're not even the best trumpets you can buy on Amazon, as I see a student Yamaha on there for less than $900.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This happens all too often online with all sorts of products. A website or author claims to be an expert or have some kind of knowledge about a product, writes a review, and educates the public. Sounds great until you realize the article is rubbish and the whole point is to generate web traffic to the host site, or encourage click through traffic to an online retailer, in this case Amazon. It costs next to nothing to host the review site, the article can be churned out in five minutes, and the get paid per click. Sounds great until you consider the inexperienced customer base that actually takes to heart what the article says.

As for RS, I would assume they have some sort of affiliate agreement with Amazon. Stick the magazines name on the article for legitimacy and it's a win win for both companies. Notice that the only trumpets reviewed just happen to be brands sold on Amazon. I find it hard to believe their editors wouldn't have picked a Yamaha, Bach, Jupiter, Eastman, etc.... Nope, the only trumpets they "like" are $99-$199 Amazon brands.

I ran into this same kind of thing last fall when I was shopping for a new snow blower. One review site seemed pretty legit. The had recommendations broken down into 4 or 5 classes based on engine size, cut width, and price. Oddly enough, every single model recommended was a Home Depot exclusive model. I could see it on one or two, but every one? Maybe I'm too cynical, but I don't buy it.

Unfortunately, these things are out there for almost every product. They are just disguised click bait. "You won't believe what these 25 80's heart throbs look like today!"

That was my initial issue with this thread in the first place. Don't come into a community of knowledgeable trumpet players, claim to be a fan of the site even though you just registered and have never before posted, throw out some garbage article, and then try to have the members rewrite it for you all so you can mislead some uneducated first time buyers. It's exploiting and dishonest.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
Notice that the only trumpets reviewed just happen to be brands sold on Amazon. I find it hard to believe their editors wouldn't have picked a Yamaha, Bach, Jupiter, Eastman, etc.... Nope, the only trumpets they "like" are $99-$199 Amazon brands.


The thing that gets me is that its not even smart business for Amazon. Those brands they feature are pass-through from retailers, while they have Conn-Selmer (including Strads) in Amazon Warehouses. Its bad for Amazon, bad for Rolling Stone - people eventually catch on to misleading marketing, and then its bad for the investors in these entities. Amazon stockholders should complain to shareholder relations that their investment is being hazarded by such short-sited and self-destructive practices.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t agree in one point. People will not get it. They will keep buying and buying crap. Part of the problem is that it IS cheap on the short run and a lot of people don’t have the possibility to save some money these days (in fact a lot of people never had the opportunity to save money).

A lot of people will also look no further and think advertisements are a reliable source. Companies like Amazon will do just fine, which is sorta sad. I try to buy local and don’t even have an Amazon account but even when you walk into a larger store it is often part of a chain that is just focusing on pumping out stuff to make fast cash, not sell quality (ok, I sound old now, sorry ).
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
I don’t agree in one point. People will not get it. They will keep buying and buying crap. Part of the problem is that it IS cheap on the short run and a lot of people don’t have the possibility to save some money these days (in fact a lot of people never had the opportunity to save money).

A lot of people will also look no further and think advertisements are a reliable source. Companies like Amazon will do just fine, which is sorta sad. I try to buy local and don’t even have an Amazon account but even when you walk into a larger store it is often part of a chain that is just focusing on pumping out stuff to make fast cash, not sell quality (ok, I sound old now, sorry ).


Sadly, I couldn't agree more based on what I observe.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Brassnose wrote:
I don’t agree in one point. People will not get it. They will keep buying and buying crap. Part of the problem is that it IS cheap on the short run and a lot of people don’t have the possibility to save some money these days (in fact a lot of people never had the opportunity to save money).

A lot of people will also look no further and think advertisements are a reliable source. Companies like Amazon will do just fine, which is sorta sad. I try to buy local and don’t even have an Amazon account but even when you walk into a larger store it is often part of a chain that is just focusing on pumping out stuff to make fast cash, not sell quality (ok, I sound old now, sorry ).


Sadly, I couldn't agree more based on what I observe.


I hope you are wrong, but I will admit trends are not encouraging. I hang my hat and my hopes on past history: K-Mart.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I hope you are wrong, but I will admit trends are not encouraging. I hang my hat and my hopes on past history: K-Mart.

I'm familiar with K-Mart, but you'll have to elaborate why you think WalMart is significantly different other than being run more successfully.
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