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TheAidanAU Regular Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2021 Posts: 49 Location: Virginia, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Is anyone able to send a video demonstrating this? I would like to see how this is done properly, I would not want to damage my horn. |
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RETrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2021 Posts: 210
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | Assuming that the water key isn't leaking, why would adjusting the spring tension of the water key have any effect on the playing characteristics or sound of the horn, let alone a big effect?
To the extent players say that it has a big effect, I'm in no position to argue with what they perceive happens. So, I want to make it clear that I'm not being argumentative. I'm just looking for an explanation that meets a logical objective standard.
Jon Faddis plays a Schilke without a water key but I thought his purpose was to eliminate disruption to the sound caused by the presence of a water key hole.
Maybe a manufacturer or experienced technician can chime in here. |
I'm not a builder, but just a few thoughts generated by your comments on the Faddis horn...
The issue with the water key hole is not the hole itself. It's the fact that a nodal point can intersect the hole, in which case it reflects (not the right word, I think) off of the cork instead of the metal. This is the issue that Amado water keys were designed to fix (the hole closes with a metal cylinder). Faddis went the extra step and just removed them altogether.
We know that different materials and other modifications like heavy bracing or the Getzen sound post can affect the way these nodal points react as well.
My guess is that tension of the water key squeezes the fork that holds the screw. When "overtight", it would apply stresses to the tubing and cause it to be stiffer in an area where we know that nodal points can land, thus changing the response.
It's a SWAG theory, but that's my thought. _________________ Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype |
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Rwwilson Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2019 Posts: 187 Location: Austin Texas
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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My Olds Recording trumpet and cornet have trombone style water keys so the pivot rods run along the tubing rather than across. How should I adjust these. Oh wait, the pivots aren’t threaded so I guess I’m out of luck and will just have to live with how they play. |
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Rwwilson Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2019 Posts: 187 Location: Austin Texas
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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My Olds Recording trumpet and cornet have trombone style water keys so the pivot rods run along the tubing rather than across. How should I adjust these. Oh wait, the pivots aren’t threaded so I guess I’m out of luck and will just have to live with how they play. |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:56 am Post subject: |
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TheAidanAU wrote: | Is anyone able to send a video demonstrating this? I would like to see how this is done properly, I would not want to damage my horn. |
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Don't mess around with the springs - if you remove the water key and spring, you are likely to scratch the tubing when you put it back together.
For screw tightness, turn the head of the screw about 1/4 turn counter-clockwise to loosen it. Then gently turn it slightly clockwise until you feel some resistance - that's all that is needed.
More about water key springs - with NEW springs there are long straight legs that go inside the mounting bracket under the pivot rod. Sometimes after being installed those spring legs are bent around the bracket and are cut short.
If a spring with bent & cut legs is removed, it can be BIG pain to re-install it - there is very little material to hold and the cut ends are sharp and pointy. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 505 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:37 am Post subject: |
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I've been reading this thread with interest, and decided it was time to put this to the test with a horn I've had in my closet for a while that plays nicely, but for me, has always felt like there was too much resistance. It is a Galileo Dolce Bel Canto model trumpet that I bought a few years back...shortly after they came on the market.
I pulled it out of its case and played it for a bit, just to get a feel for it again. The water key on the main tuning slide has always felt a bit stiff (too tight), but I never tried adjusting it. I backed the threaded bolt (it has a hex head rather than being a slotted screw or thumb screw head) out about a 1/4 turn and played it some more. It plays like a completely different trumpet now. It resonates better, which affects the sound in a positive manner (more overtones...not dark, but a fuller, rounder tone), and I don't feel like I have to over blow to get the sound I'm looking for. I took it to a rehearsal last night, and can't believe how much better it plays.
I cannot speak for how other horns will react to this adjustment, but for this specific horn, it made an enormous difference. _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Three separate things, actually:
1. Strength of the spring can cause excess tension and stress where the spring mount attaches to the slide. Monette uses an Amado-style key just for this reason. (The softness of the metal that Monette preferred at one point in time would actually cause a bend and eventually a potential tear in the brass. The key also dented the slide easily of the top of the key was pushed too hard into the brass.)
2. Excess tightening of the screw (a mechanical fastener) can cause tension in the entire key mechanism, and reduce resonance. When the slightest amount of tension is removed, the instrument plays entirely differently. This also can happen with the bottom valve caps. hence the use of o-rings to keep the caps from rattling when slightly loosened. There is a "formula" to that as well, and these things need to be monitored for loosening due to the vibration during playing.
3. Cork seal can affect how well the key is sealed. If it is worn or fits poorly, the seal is not complete, which can change the response and playing of a trumpet. Interestingly, I was shown a trick on "La Mer" where the cornet goes up to a high Ab-Bb slur at a very soft dynamic, and the trick was to open the water key when on the high Ab, and the instrument slurs right up to the high Bb. I learned this from my teacher, who learned it from Harry Glantz.
All my best,
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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I had Saturn water keys put on my primary horns, and it feels like there's nothing there at all. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Rwwilson wrote: | My Olds Recording trumpet and cornet have trombone style water keys so the pivot rods run along the tubing rather than across. How should I adjust these. Oh wait, the pivots aren’t threaded so I guess I’m out of luck and will just have to live with how they play. |
You're not out of luck, you're lucky enough to play an instrument that was designed by builders who recognized the tight water key screw issues and opted to fix them for you . |
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improver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:07 am Post subject: |
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I just got the tensions right on my Bach 37s and have no in tension to move them. There is definitely a sweet spot with these water key springs and my recommendation is it's just loosened little from fully tightened. I just wonder over the years if the new Bachs all got tightened the same or different. My guess is that could have determined playability out of the factory. Maybe the one cat who worked at the factory Can chime in. |
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