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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 650
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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The issue that I (and it seems others) have with BAC using outsourced parts is not that they outsource their products, it's that the name BAC stands for "Best American Craftsmen". How can you be the best in America when you don't build 3 out of 4 production lines on US soil, and the custom series has a Chinese block? No one takes issue with Shires using valve blocks from Eastman (China) on their Q series horns, but Shires doesn't stamp "Best entirely East-Coast built trumpets" on their horns. If the company name were "Mike Corrigan custom trumpets", I see no reason to take issue with a global supply chain, as people have no issue with Ken Larson, Josh Landress, Taylor, or Thane using outsourced blocks. Adding to this, BAC does a ton of marketing proclaiming themselves the best in the USA, and claims to be "preserving the craft" yet they don't do the hard stuff (making valve blocks) in-house. This really rubs me the wrong way and seems like dishonest advertising. There are plenty of custom builders making better instruments than the BAC without any of the pomp and circumstance. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12662 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Goby wrote: | The issue that I (and it seems others) have with BAC using outsourced parts is not that they outsource their products, it's that the name BAC stands for "Best American Craftsmen". How can you be the best in America when you don't build 3 out of 4 production lines on US soil, and the custom series has a Chinese block? No one takes issue with Shires using valve blocks from Eastman (China) on their Q series horns, but Shires doesn't stamp "Best entirely East-Coast built trumpets" on their horns. If the company name were "Mike Corrigan custom trumpets", I see no reason to take issue with a global supply chain, as people have no issue with Ken Larson, Josh Landress, Taylor, or Thane using outsourced blocks. Adding to this, BAC does a ton of marketing proclaiming themselves the best in the USA, and claims to be "preserving the craft" yet they don't do the hard stuff (making valve blocks) in-house. This really rubs me the wrong way and seems like dishonest advertising. There are plenty of custom builders making better instruments than the BAC without any of the pomp and circumstance. | Wow đŻ
I hadnât thought about it that way. But personally I donât find the correlation between âBest American Craftsmanâ meaning they have more responsibility to use only American parts. Certainly there is nothing in that name that implies âentirelyâ.
Perhaps BAC has realized that they simply cannot survive using only shop produced components after they chose their name. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Goby wrote: | How can you be the best in America when you don't build 3 out of 4 production lines on US soil, and the custom series has a Chinese block? |
Let's review (again)
- Apprentice - completely imported from low-cost manufacturing, entry level
- Artist - completely imported, with controls and tweaking like Manchester, or Flip's second line
- Handcraft - US-designed and built mixing KC-built parts with modified off the shelf assemblies (like completely rebuilding the valve block and reseating the pistons)
- Benge - Entirely US made, hand built, boutique trumpets with a long heritage (originally in France ironically, not the US)
Must be that common core math again, because Benge and Handcraft (that's 2 of 4) are clearly built in the US, with a third modified in the US (just like Dillon's, and Trent's - among the many) - not that it matters.
So Mike Corrigan is a blow-hard who picked an ambitious name outlining a goal to promote American design and quality. - If you want to pass up a horn because you don't like the name, have fun toppling statues and leave playing to people who pay attention to how the horn plays, how it lasts, and how many folks it keeps employed right here in the US. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of all that, the PRC is not currently in power in Taiwan.
I find it interesting that some people on this site are more than fine with some makers that are owned locally using Asian built valve blocks for their "Handcrafted in Kansas City" instruments, yet has some veiled skepticism of a different maker that is owned by a foreign company that makes all their parts in their domestic facility.
Hmmm..... _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | I find it interesting that some people on this site are more than fine with some makers that are owned locally using Asian built valve blocks for their "Handcrafted in Kansas City" instruments, yet has some veiled skepticism of a different maker that is owned by a foreign company that makes all their parts in their domestic facility.
Hmmm..... |
This is a fair point, and politely made for which I thank you.
I have asked BAC to share more, not just who makes those blocks, but many other details of the amazing heritage of brass making there. Such does not seem to align with Mike Corrigan's social-media oriented perspective on marketing, so I wring my hands in frustration wishing others knew what I know.
As for the other maker: met people who love them, and others who don't. I have no opinion and, you must note, have said I wish I knew more so as to be more informed and have an opinion.
Transparency is the best approach, I wish every maker would realize this. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 625 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: |
Regardless of all that, the PRC is not currently in power in Taiwan.
I find it interesting that some people on this site are more than fine with some makers that are owned locally using Asian built valve blocks for their "Handcrafted in Kansas City" instruments, yet has some veiled skepticism of a different maker that is owned by a foreign company that makes all their parts in their domestic facility.
Hmmm..... |
Indeed, I recently put up a 30 minute video from that manufacturer, made in 2020, of how they assemble their instruments from raw materials in the United States, which I can further attest because I know people who work there. Haven't heard back yet. Go figure. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3633 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Interesting discussion.
I think it's all going to mainland China, in terms of production, and it's only a matter of time. I don't like that idea, not that I have anything against Chinese instruments or parts, but because the U.S. really set the pace in the industry for a very long time.
I've looked at Carolbrass valve sections - they're almost too perfect! And I'm sure there are factories on the mainland that are producing decent instruments, I've worked on some YTR200ADII trumpets lately and they are well built, better than the previous versions. All student Yamaha brass are coming out of their Chinese factories now.
So if BAC or anybody else is using Chinese parts in their horns, they have to take responsibility for quality control, and that's enough, IMHO. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Getzen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1920
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | Interesting discussion.
I think it's all going to mainland China, in terms of production, and it's only a matter of time. |
Well I certainly hope not. _________________ Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/
Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany
If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 724 Location: California
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Iâm responding to this thread on a device made in China thatâs about 300 years more advanced than a brass instrument. As are almost all of you.
As OldSchoolEuph points out, there are tiers in the market. Manufacturers build stuff for those tiers as cheaply as possible to maintain a profit margin for each tier while maintaining some expectation of âqualityâ for that tier.
Every thing else is just marketing. If you like the way you sound on a particular horn, play that one. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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MrOlds wrote: | If you like the way you sound on a particular horn, play that one. |
This should be a banner header on this site. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Getzen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1920
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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MrOlds wrote: | Iâm responding to this thread on a device made in China thatâs about 300 years more advanced than a brass instrument. As are almost all of you. |
I would disagree with this analogy in one sense. While developing something like a smart phone, iPad, computer, etc... is very difficult building one it is not nuanced. It is, if you pardon the pun, binary. It is either right or wrong. By that I mean there is only one way to do it that works. Building an instrument, just like playing one, is different.
Putting together a 1,000 piece puzzle of the Mona Lisa is time consuming and complex, but it isnât the same thing as painting it. I can drive a car, but Iâll never win the Daytona 500.
We could take apart a pre-war French Besson and build an exact replica based on every possible measurement. Would it be the same? Maybe 90%, but the magic is in that missing 10%.
Some manufacturers can and do nail that 90%. And they can and do sell a lot of them. Itâs the true craftsmen, from all over the world, that focus on that extra 10%. Sometimes you get it, sometimes you donât, but you donât stop trying for it. Thatâs the difference between doing what we do to just make money, and doing it for the thrill and passion of it.
A long timer in this business once told me you donât get rich building trumpets if youâre doing it right. The real rewards are something different. Something more. I always liked that. Although, getting rich would be nice.
Anyway, play what works for you. Donât assume Brand X is great because of a good marketing plan or because âeveryoneâ says it is. Just like you shouldnât discount Brand Y just because of its country of origin or because someone elseâs review. _________________ Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/
Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany
If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12662 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Getzen wrote: | I would disagree with this analogy in one sense. While developing something like a smart phone, iPad, computer, etc... is very difficult building one it is not nuanced. It is, if you pardon the pun, binary. It is either right or wrong. By that I mean there is only one way to do it that works. Building an instrument, just like playing one, is different. |
Umm. As someone intimately involved in the computer industry over the last fifty years I have to say you are making the same mistake you are highlighting in your post.
I agree with the points you are making, but the same issues happen in the computer industry that happen in instrument manufacturing. It is just that most people donât know enough about my industry, just like we donât know about yours, to know the dirty little nuances, or corners cut, involved. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:10 am Post subject: |
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MrOlds wrote: | Iâm responding to this thread on a device made in China thatâs about 300 years more advanced than a brass instrument. As are almost all of you. |
Not sure about the last bit....
But, there's a difference between a trumpet and a cellphone, a violin and a keyboard. It's not a matter of advancement, it's a matter of craftsmanship.
It doesn't matter who builds your DVD player. It does matter who builds your trumpet, clarinet, guitar, or violin.
MrOlds wrote: | If you like the way you sound on a particular horn, play that one. |
Can't argue with that. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Master Jabroni Regular Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2014 Posts: 30 Location: World wide
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:36 am Post subject: |
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MrOlds wrote: |
As OldSchoolEuph points out, there are tiers in the market. Manufacturers build stuff for those tiers as cheaply as possible to maintain a profit margin for each tier while maintaining some expectation of âqualityâ for that tier.
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The Chinese valve block BAC is using is cheap and not the same quality as Getzen, Bauerfeind, Meinlschmidt, Bach, Schilke or even Carol and is clearly the same valve block used on their mid tier trumpets. You can order those valve blocks from China for $50. When makers like Mr. Del Quadro make a horn they use a quality valves. I think it's shameful for BAC to use such cheaply made parts and charge such a premium price for their "American Made" horns _________________ Musician & machinist.
Many Bachs, Yamahas, and others.
"I call it how I see it" |
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Getzen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1920
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:39 am Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Getzen wrote: | I would disagree with this analogy in one sense. While developing something like a smart phone, iPad, computer, etc... is very difficult building one it is not nuanced. It is, if you pardon the pun, binary. It is either right or wrong. By that I mean there is only one way to do it that works. Building an instrument, just like playing one, is different. |
Umm. As someone intimately involved in the computer industry over the last fifty years I have to say you are making the same mistake you are highlighting in your post.
I agree with the points you are making, but the same issues happen in the computer industry that happen in instrument manufacturing. It is just that most people donât know enough about my industry, just like we donât know about yours, to know the dirty little nuances, or corners cut, involved. |
Fair enough. _________________ Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/
Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany
If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 625 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:34 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
As for the other maker: met people who love them, and others who don't. I have no opinion and, you must note, have said I wish I knew more so as to be more informed and have an opinion.
Transparency is the best approach, I wish every maker would realize this. |
The process by which they turn raw brass and nickel into trumpets and other instruments here in the United States starts around 7:50 here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njWitow40Vw
And here's a 2019 area new channel tour of the same factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kWAJqv-c8
You can also visit their factory and see for yourself.
I'm really not sure what more transparency one needs, particularly, speaking as a lawyer here, no manufacturer ought to show every aspect of their operations because it would give away proprietary processes, trade secrets, and other intellectual property that can be utilized by competitors. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | speaking as a lawyer here |
?! _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 625 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:10 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | speaking as a lawyer here |
?! |
Sometimes in a competitive industrial market companies want to show off their new factory or process or what have you. It's their lawyers, usually inhouse counsel, who have to wave their arms about and say "What are you doing? You just spent X years and Y dollars developing that new assembly or tech to build your products; if you show it off your competitors will be able to figure out how you did it and reverse-engineer it for a lot less money than you spent doing it." That's what I meant. It does not behoove a company to show off every last nut and bolt of how they do things as it can give up their competitive advantage, trade secrets, etc.
In this case, for instance, the longer video talks about how the company invented some new type of trombone valve or rotor. It would obviously not be in their self-interest to show exactly how that is made.
But to get back to the point, those horns are made, from scratch, in the United States. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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Getzen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1920
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Years ago, in my factory days, we had a particular process used in trombone slide tubes. We were the only ones doing it at the time and it made our slide action incredibly smooth and fast. When we gave tours, the equipment was covered up and ignored. We NEVER talked about it. Then an employee left for a competitor and spoiled the secret. Now almost every manufacturer does it in one way or another. There are other things we donât talk about now and thatâs where the 10% I mentioned before lives.
That being said, donât assume the reason a particular manufacturer wonât show you something being done is because they have a secret. I can show you just about everything we do in a way that doesnât reveal the secret sauce. If a company claims they do everything, but all you see are bells being spun and nothing at all involving valve construction or vice versa be suspicious.
Thereâs nothing wrong with outsourcing. We do it for cases and mouthpieces. Just be honest about it. When Adam was working with builders looking to buy our valve sections, one of his terms was that they disclose the source. As soon as they publicly claimed they made them in house, he would cut them off. Some were fine with that. Some were not and went elsewhere. So be it.
And apologies to the OP, this thread has definitely gone of course. _________________ Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/
Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany
If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 625 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Getzen wrote: | Years ago, in my factory days, we had a particular process used in trombone slide tubes. We were the only ones doing it at the time and it made our slide action incredibly smooth and fast. When we gave tours, the equipment was covered up and ignored. We NEVER talked about it. Then an employee left for a competitor and spoiled the secret. Now almost every manufacturer does it in one way or another. There are other things we donât talk about now and thatâs where the 10% I mentioned before lives.
That being said, donât assume the reason a particular manufacturer wonât show you something being done is because they have a secret. I can show you just about everything we do in a way that doesnât reveal the secret sauce. If a company claims they do everything, but all you see are bells being spun and nothing at all involving valve construction or vice versa be suspicious.
Thereâs nothing wrong with outsourcing. We do it for cases and mouthpieces. Just be honest about it. When Adam was working with builders looking to buy our valve sections, one of his terms was that they disclose the source. As soon as they publicly claimed they made them in house, he would cut them off. Some were fine with that. Some were not and went elsewhere. So be it.
And apologies to the OP, this thread has definitely gone of course. |
All very good points. And from what little I know of the history of instrument manufacturing, things appear a bit... looser than in other industries. I believe I read once upon a time Zig Kanstul was working for Olds during the day and for Benge at night. Can you imagine, say, Ford and GM agreeing to have a key employee bounce back and forth? Or Apple and Google? I think not.
The overarching point is that, despite another commenter's unsupported suppositions otherwise, the evidence shows that the American manufacturer in question does make everything inhouse and in the States for their flagship horns, even though they have [scary voice] Chinese ownership.
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the continued American manufacturing future of a certain major brass conglomerate that is now a mere subdivision of a company owned by a private equity firm with a certain reputation for slicing expenses down to the marrow... and who a few years ago tried to sell to the whole thing to [scary voice] a Chinese company.
And you are right, this has strayed far off topic. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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