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Fatigue after multiple horn switches



 
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:32 pm    Post subject: Fatigue after multiple horn switches Reply with quote

Hi All,

One of my projects for the last few months was to learn "Antique Violences" by John Mackey. Surprised that there's nothing on TH about the work actually...

Anyway, its a concerto for trumpet and wind ensemble and it requires 5 horns: Bb, C, Eb, Picc and Flugel.

I've done plenty of musical theater and other stuff that requires switching horns, but usually they are sort of "centered" on the Bb/C and then the switches are fairly quick. C to Picc for orchestra is also no problem. Never had an issue with those kinds of things.

This piece is a bit different in that it basically centers on the picc for the first two movements (Picc and C in 1, picc throughout in 2). Something about that sets me up for problems in movement 3 which is a broad, dark, theme on Flugel and then on Bb.

I know it's not the picc work itself as I can practice those movements in isolation without serious endurance issues (and I know how to manage practice time on the picc). But something about this particular switch from picc to flugel to Bb causes almost instant fatigue as I get above the staff on the Bb at the end of movement 3. (I can do this movement in isolation as well...). When I try to put it all together, I can feel the embouchure tire, then I overblow to hold the phrase, and it's all downhill from there...

I'm open to any ideas on switching horns, either generally or on this piece. Or any ideas on starting works on the higher horns, or whatever people might think is relevant.

Thanks!

Link to Chris Martin playing with University of Texas for reference (he does the Bb stuff on C because, well, he's Chris Martin...)

Link

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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are clearly advanced enough to play the piece and have a lot of knowledge on preparation. So, having all the individual movements nailed is very important to this process. I would treat it like an endurance athlete/sport.

Step 1:
Be able to play each movement at 50% tempo. Phenomenally well.

Step 2:
Be able to play through every movement (up to tempo) twice without fatigue issues. Start at 5 minutes apart and reduce time over 4 weeks to 10 seconds between rep.

Step 3:
Be able to play through two consecutive movements with some time in between. Find out the period of time where you can play two movements in a row and the reduce that over a period of 4 weeks. Perhaps add a third movement in this process or wait until after the 4 weeks.

Step 4:
ABAB those. Day A - work on repetition of movements, Day B work on consecutive movements. Maybe just 4 times a week, the other 2-3 days work on efficiency/getting better at trumpet skills. Make these lower effort days. Don't allow yourself to fatigue, so play in a way that you stay fresh everyday.

Obviously work on switching between horns in your routine/warm up. Chris Martin himself plays a few horns in the morning. Somebody like Joey Tartell plays like 7 horns in his routine.

You have all the right knowledge, just do it. Playing a piece like that isn't comfortable, so at some point, when you are doing your longer runs, you have to get used to the discomfort and making it work. It's part of getting better (that mental part that effects the physical). Chris has years of understanding this process. What you're seeing is a tweaked and tuned machine forced on him by the demands of his job. You are on your way to his level (maybe lol), but it requires thought and planning.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for this! It's a really excellent process that I hope a lot of people read and apply (relevant variations of) to whatever works they are preparing. I think we trumpet players sometimes fall prey to the "macho" mentality and just try to physically impose our will on the music. Clearly a step back and a careful plan is what is called for.

I didn't know the anecdotes about Martin and Tartell changing horns in their warmup. I'm going to have to think about that, too. I think you're right, but I've been unsuccessful with that before and started warming up exclusively on Bb in high school (I even take a Bb to gigs where I won't be using it). I probably just need to gradually get into it. Bb and C for a week, Then Bb, C, Flugel, then Bb, C, Flugel, Eb, Etc...

I'll work that into the plan, too.

Much appreciated, abontrumpet. Cheers!
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would love to give advice, but you're playing in a league that's way beyond mine. So instead, I'm just gonna keep an eye on this thread as it's certainly going to be interesting to read. Good luck, I'm sure you're gonna figure it out (and when you do, it'll be phenomenal).
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So after sleeping on it, here's what I came up with.

There's two competing thoughts in my head. First, I would like each horn to feel like an extension of the next lower horn. Second, I think each horn should have it's unique character. There are timbral reasons that composers choose to call for specific instruments and that needs to be respected. Bb and Eb should sound different for example. So the question then becomes, can you let the horn do as much of the work on the sound concept as possible while keeping a nice even feel. The player must still do some preparation on sound, of course. (This may be flawed thinking, but I think it's an idea worth pursuing)

To this end, I'm going to focus on extending my warmup to multiple horns first. Bb and C for the next week and then reevaluate.

I need a baseline, so today (and perhaps the next couple days) I am just going to devote my practice to fundamentals. I will do my flexibility and airflow work twice, alternating horns. Then some etudes (Charlier 1 & 2 probably, and maybe Arban's Characteristic #1), also alternating horns. I will not transpose for the C as the goal in this case is to feel like C is a whole step extension of the Bb. I'll finish with some work on the concerto at 50% tempo as abontrumpet recommended: C trumpet in the first movement and Bb the third.

Once I get comfortable with that, I want to do something like lip slur patterns split between both horns. 123, 13, 23, 12, 1 on Bb, then 23, 12, 1, 2, 0 on C to really accentuate the idea that the instruments "connect."

If this works, then in a couple weeks I'll add the Eb and then the picc after that. (not sure if the flugel needs to be in there... probably...). I'll add the sections of the concerto that use those horns at 50% tempo as I go (maybe not the end of the 4th movement, that would be a very long concert high E, lol).

Once I get the warmup routine established, I will move to step 2 of abontrumpet's process.
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I try to give equal time to all of my horns, but rarely can I play all of them in one session.

Once in awhile I'll get all five horns out and rotate them in my warmup--each rep on a different horn, doing a type of spider exercise where I add notes up and down with each rep. It helps me focus less on what my chops are doing on each different mouthpiece and think about the sound I want from each horn. I have the same rim on each mouthpiece but different cup depths.

That said, I would probably die trying to play that five-horn concerto the OP is talking about.

In college I routinely practiced on seven or eight horns every day: Bb, C, D, Eb, piccolo, flugel, cornet, and trombone. But I was young and strong then--and maybe a little stupid as well. I once did a half-classical, half-jazz recital where I played C, Eb, piccolo and Bb cornet for the classical first half, and Bb trumpet, flugel, and valve trombone for the jazz portion. By the end of it my chops were completely fried. My trumpet teacher afterward recommended that I never do more than two horn changes on a recital because it was pretty clear I was a jack of all horns and master of none.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you play the piece out of sequence, coming back to picc at the end, is it a lot easier? It sounds like the challenge is having picc up front and then switching to Bb/C/etc. It may be if you started your practice on picc going forward and then moved to the bigger horns that might help. Really interesting question! I always admire those who can play multiple instruments well.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
If you play the piece out of sequence, coming back to picc at the end, is it a lot easier? It sounds like the challenge is having picc up front and then switching to Bb/C/etc. It may be if you started your practice on picc going forward and then moved to the bigger horns that might help. Really interesting question! I always admire those who can play multiple instruments well.


That’s basically the order that the first three movements are written. But it does give me an idea. I wonder what would happen if I tried short etudes on picc and then followed them up with short etudes on flugel?

My guess is that it’s something to do with the picc to flugel change. If I had to guess at a specific, I’d say that the drastic change in the blow of between those two horns results in me engaging some muscle in my embouchure in a way that I don’t normally use it. Since it doesn’t get that work under normal circumstances, it fatigues almost immediately and drags me down. It probably doesn’t help that my flugel is American bore either (but I’m not one to blame equipment usually).

Anyway, I’m going to carve out 10 minutes for a separate session to alternate some easy picc and flugel stuff and see if I feel anything.

Thanks!
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind words! Awesome planning ahead it looks like.

RETrumpet wrote:
There are timbral reasons that composers choose to call for specific instruments and that needs to be respected. Bb and Eb should sound different for example. So the question then becomes, can you let the horn do as much of the work on the sound concept as possible while keeping a nice even feel.


Having worked with Mackey, I'm convinced that he doesn't care about timbre for the big(ger) trumpets. I suspect just likes to see all the notes "look" like they are high C and below. But your last sentence is spot on in general.

RETrumpet wrote:
Once I get comfortable with that, I want to do something like lip slur patterns split between both horns. 123, 13, 23, 12, 1 on Bb, then 23, 12, 1, 2, 0 on C to really accentuate the idea that the instruments "connect."


That's one way, I prefer to do longer chunks on horns. Here's the Chris warm up for reference: https://www.mypracticeroom.com/chris-martin-warmup/

RETrumpet wrote:
If this works, then in a couple weeks I'll add the Eb and then the picc after that. (not sure if the flugel needs to be in there... probably...). I'll add the sections of the concerto that use those horns at 50% tempo as I go (maybe not the end of the 4th movement, that would be a very long concert high E, lol).


I think flugel horn deserves a spot eventually! haha. You bring up a good point about long notes. On slow movements I usually work opposite start at 120% tempo and work my way to 90%. I want to say I learned that from Eric Aubier, but can't remember.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You must switch your sound concept with each instrument change.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link to Martin's routine!

abontrumpet wrote:

Having worked with Mackey, I'm convinced that he doesn't care about timbre for the big(ger) trumpets. I suspect just likes to see all the notes "look" like they are high C and below. But your last sentence is spot on in general.


I suspect you are right with regard to the fourth movement. Fewer players would pick up the piece if they saw a "fff" high F# at the end!

I haven't worked directly with Mackey but I do know a lot about his music. And, I don't mean to contradict your experience, but there may be some nuance to this. Mackey does write timbral instructions in his parts often. "Brittle," "pointed," "Broad and dark," "Heroic," and "Crisp" are all instructions I've seen in his parts. Not to mention his explicit instructions to leave notes out if you can't fully sustain them with good tone/volume or confidently hit them cleanly. So he clearly cares about color and timbre in some circumstances (all of those instructions are on Bb parts...) Sometimes he cares about it more than harmony!
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you might reach a larger # of players who would have possible insights into your issue on the orchestral forum. Not to imply that the responses you’ve received are not valid ( I’ve had experience with Bb and limited flugel so I know nothing about other instruments) but I do recognize that very few on the forum would view this as a “fundamental” issue. I don’t mind where you post ( at all, I like to read) but the orchestral forum might reach more who understand the issue. It’s a very difficult piece for even a very good player ( he assumes ).
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rod,
Thanks for the feedback. To me this is most likely an embouchure thing, which is why I put the post here. In retrospect, I definitely see how this might be a bit counter to the spirit of this forum. That said, I'll leave it here for continuity and because a couple people have now said they are interested in following it.

....

So here's the update.

I focused on fundamentals back and forth on Bb and C. Going from Bb to C, the transition is seamless. The C feels like a natural extension of the Bb.

Going from C to Bb however, I find that I am just the slightest bit stiff. I can still make the Bb work pretty well and almost not notice it unless I am really focused on the feel. That is,until I get to the low concert F and E (which don't exist on the C). Perhaps the F# isn't quite there either.... Those notes are airy and unfocused. After some light noodling for about a minute in the low register, the focus comes back and the Bb feels spot on again.

With this interesting result, I'm wondering if the loose slotting of the flugel doesn't allow me to feel this inefficiency until it's too late....

Either way, the plan needs a bit of modification. I'm going to devote some time to smoothing out the C to Bb transition until it's done. Obviously, that can't be allowed to remain that way.

Once I get that, I'm going to add the flugel before adding the higher horns. Something tells me that getting the flugel really centered is going to be a big step in this process.

Didn't get time to do the short picc/flugel experiment. Will backburner that for now, given the results of this week.

Last, just a brief comment on practicing at 50% tempo. It's a great approach that really forces me to pay attention to sound quality. I've slowed stuff down before to work on it but this deliberate approach on things I thought I could play was enlightening. Thanks again, abontrumpet!
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RETrumpet wrote:
Going from C to Bb however, I find that I am just the slightest bit stiff. I can still make the Bb work pretty well and almost not notice it unless I am really focused on the feel. That is until I get to the low concert F and E (which don't exist on the C). Perhaps the F# isn't quite there either.... Those notes are airy and unfocused. After some light noodling for about a minute in the low register, the focus comes back and the Bb feels spot on again.


I suspect you are playing the exact same mouthpiece on both Bb and C? I prefer a mouthpiece that is slightly different for C (same piece with larger backbore and throat). This is where I get into "bro-science" territory, but I feel that the slightly different mouthpiece, in addition to mechanically being different, helps my brain understand better when I am playing "Bb" trumpet versus "C" trumpet.

I've never experimented with this, but I think that if you tell yourself, out-loud, "I am playing C trumpet" then when you switch say "I am playing Bb trumpet" that the issue you are having will lessen. It's a programming thing more than a physical thing. Probably won't work, but I think it might. If it is possible for a person to play the trombone then switch to trumpet, or to play horn and immediately play trumpet (david guerrier) then C to Bb surely can't be impossible either.

Sounds like you doing good work! Enjoy
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a Monette B2S3 for Bb and a C2S3 for C, so not exactly the same, but they are definitely designed to feel the same. I don't know the backbore specifics, but the throats are both 19.

I like the idea of a verbal cue. I'll try that out.

Thanks!

P.S. I taught a 5th grade trombone class this year (long story)... RESPECT for anybody that can make that switch. My embouchure was totally confused and worthless after those sessions. On the plus side, I can sight read bass clef now.
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C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe
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JoeLoeffler
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if the endurance problem may actually stem from the mouthpiece that you have chosen for your flugelhorn.

About 15 years ago I was playing a run of (I think it was Kiss of the Spider Woman, But I can’t remember for sure right now) with a drastically reduced pit and I always got tired directly after the pair of flugelhorn tunes in the second act and had control problems for the rest of the show almost every night. I finally figured out that if I used a slightly smaller and shallower mouthpiece on the flugelhorn everything was completely fine afterward.

Another example… I had a friend that played lead in jobbing bands. He said his life got a whole lot easier when he switched to using a very small flugelhorn piece for those gigs. He could play flugelhorn for the whole dinner set and then play two or three sets screaming away on the high stuff with no issues. Before that mouthpiece change, he said he always felt kinda flabbed out if he played too much flugelhorn early in the night…

This is a piece that I do not know very well. You say the first two movements are played mostly on picc and then the third movement switches to flugelhorn and then problems start. I wonder if your embouchure is relaxing into the flugelhorn too much and/or you are needing to do too much work to keep a centered sound (or adjust pitch) on the flugelhorn and that is tiring you out more than you think.

I am assuming you are using a smaller mouthpiece on piccolo then you normally do on C/B flat. Moving from that mouthpiece to your flugelhorn mouthpiece (that I assume has a rim diameter similar to your large horn mouthpieces) could be setting you up for issues. Moving from the high compression, high resistance system of the Piccolo trumpet to a significantly lower compression lower resistance set up on the flugelhorn naturally pushes you towards relaxing your embouchure in ways also.

I recommend trying a smaller and possibly slightly shallower flugelhorn mouthpiece for this solo. You might find that it is easier to make the transition away from the flugel and on to the other horns for the remainder of the piece. Yes, you could probably eventually practice your way out of this but sometimes the easiest, most direct route to solving the problem is looking at how the equipment forces your body to behave and making a change there.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply. Excellent insights.

I think we are on the same page as far as I think it has something to do with the blow for the flugel and me not centering that.

Changing rim diameters has created issues for me in the past, but I think I have something shallower that might work. I have a million mouthpieces (don't we all?) but only a few flugel pieces. I only play flugel a couple times a year usually so I haven't amassed a collection... It's also one of the few horns I don't have a Monette piece for because I play it so infrequently.

I actually use a fairly big mouthpiece on picc compared to most (BP2LS3) It's shallow-ish, but fairly wide (again, that rim thing I mentioned). I can't play the 7E's and 14A4AX's that many seem to get along with. Very small throats on those compared to what I'm used to these days, too.

I'll have to figure out the best plan to experiment with this without changing too many variables at once. But it's worth exploring, for sure.

Thanks again!
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with JoeLoeffler. In my experience I´ve been helped by using mpc:s with the same kind of rim, but different cups.
Playing the Eflat cornet/trumpet then switching to Bb trumpet didn´t present any problems at all. When playing the Eb cornet I used a Bach(Mt Vernon) 1 1/2, playing the trumpet a Bach (1970) 1 1/4. Roughly the same rim but different cups.
However - switching between Bb cornet and trumpet presented problems, in spite of using the same kind of mouthpiece (although trumpet/cornet versions) (Bach (1970 - 1 1/4). I still believe this had to do with the different registers. If you play a piccolo and then a flugel this means a huge difference given what muscles are activated. Playing a big deep mpc might indeed make you lips "flabby". On the other hand - lately I have found that doing what´s known as BE double pedals (Roll outs)then turning to the Roll Ins -the goal being to obtain a kind of smooth transition between these extremes - this helps me doing the switches described above. But that´s me.
In all: In my experience the biggest issue (for me) is the leap between so different registers; same mpc rims but different cups may help a lot, as might practicing the transition between the extreme registers - seemless more or less transition between double pedals and the reverse.
Then there is a personal touch: I´ve a playing buddy who can switch between euphonium and Eb cornet just like that....(although he complains of a certain stiffness in his lips doing so).
.
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