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Video Fluoroscopy of The Tongue


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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:42 pm    Post subject: Video Fluoroscopy of The Tongue Reply with quote

This is from my past conferences.
I will be releasing more soon.
Subscribe to my YouTube, click like, and hit the notification bell to see new videos as they get released.

https://www.purtle.com/x-ray-video-the-tongue-keith-amstutz

Link

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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Haynie showed us a very similar video at NTSU back in the 1980's. He said that some players used in the video swore that they didn't arch their tongue, and they were quite surprised when they saw the result.
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith talks about that in the first 15 or 20 minutes before his video.

Jeff
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. So he takes this not from simply the position of the tongue and then attempts to get into air mechanics and air "speed". This is where the cause/effect explanation goes awry and into error.

I have asked before: If he claims that the air "speed" increases with the raised tongue then how was that measured?


He is making some unfounded assumptions here and doesn't understand air flow mechanics.

Air "speed" over the tongue is NOT the air speed through the aperture. A narrowing of the path of flow will introduce a reduction of air pressure downstream due to Poiseuille's law. That would cause a reduction in air velocity through the aperture, regardless of its size.

The garden hose analogy, is , as usual, misapplied.

Air speed, ANYWHERE, is not the determining factor of pitch. Tongue movement is related to embouchure effort. Specifically the "roll-out" action.
The lip posture (state of lip tension) ultimately directly determines the pitch played. The oral size does not.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Darryl

I invariably enjoy reading your posts. Can you elaborate on this?

Quote:
Tongue movement is related to embouchure effort. Specifically the "roll-out" action.


thanks.

Steve in Helsinki
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
...
Air speed, ANYWHERE, is not the determining factor of pitch. Tongue movement is related to embouchure effort. Specifically the "roll-out" action.
The lip posture (state of lip tension) ultimately directly determines the pitch played. The oral size does not.

---------------------------------------
I agree with Darryl about the physics of 'lip posture', but it seems that many people have a strong 'sensation feeling' of 'air speed' through the aperture.

I think that 'air speed' has been described as being controlled by the difference in air pressure between the inner and outer openings of the aperture.
In order to produce higher oral cavity air pressure, it is necessary to increase the resistance of air flow through the aperture, and to blow harder. The increased resistance comes from 'lip posture' that reduces the air flow.
So ... a somewhat common suggestion is to 'blow faster air' - and the player then makes the physical adjustments (lip posture and internal air pressure) to achieve that feeling.
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Last edited by JayKosta on Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In order to produce higher oral cavity air pressure, it is necessary to increase the resistance of air flow through the aperture, and to blow harder.


No Jay. The resistance does not have to be increased to raise pressure. Only increasing the blowing action increases air pressure.

Quote:
So ... a somewhat common suggestion is to 'blow faster air' - and the player then makes the physical adjustments (lip posture and internal air pressure) to achieve that feeling.


Yes. In a metaphorical sense this encourages the ACTIONS required to ascend in pitch WHILE sustaining loudness (including increasing the embouchure tension). But somehow it has morphed into the "well-known FACT" that air speed = pitch. And even further, there are those who believe that "air speed" is the same throughout the system. And that "narrowing" the path in one place will "speed-up" the air everywhere. It is just very poor understanding of air flow mechanics.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
[...And that "narrowing" the path in one place will "speed-up" the air everywhere. It is just very poor understanding of air flow mechanics.

I did not hear in the video that narrowing the path in one place will speed up the air "everywhere," but maybe I missed that. Do these changes inside the mouth (tongue arch/position, movement of the soft palate, et al) affect performance on the instrument, and if so, how? Do you have some online resources that can help us understand air flow mechanics better, and if possible, how these mechanics may correspond to playing the trumpet?
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do these changes inside the mouth (tongue arch/position, movement of the soft palate, et al) affect performance on the instrument?


Not directly. They should be where they are comfortable depending on what you are doing with the lip embouchure. The tongue primarily is of use to allow or deny air pressure to the embouchure for articulation.

The arching of the tongue while engaging the muscles around the lips is a natural coordinated movement related to the mouth's primary function, which is eating.

Quote:
Do you have some online resources that can help us understand air flow mechanics better, and if possible, how these mechanics may correspond to playing the trumpet?


The primary laws in play in regard to flow, pressure and velocity are Poiseuille's and Bernoulli. Poiseuille accounts for viscosity and losses, this is what is conveniently ignored by the tongue-arch-for air speed proponents.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Do these changes inside the mouth (tongue arch/position, movement of the soft palate, et al) affect performance on the instrument?


Not directly. They should be where they are comfortable depending on what you are doing with the lip embouchure. The tongue primarily is of use to allow or deny air pressure to the embouchure for articulation.

The arching of the tongue while engaging the muscles around the lips is a natural coordinated movement related to the mouth's primary function, which is eating.

Quote:
Do you have some online resources that can help us understand air flow mechanics better, and if possible, how these mechanics may correspond to playing the trumpet?


The primary laws in play in regard to flow, pressure and velocity are Poiseuille's and Bernoulli. Poiseuille accounts for viscosity and losses, this is what is conveniently ignored by the tongue-arch-for air speed proponents.

Understood, and a gentle addition here would be that the primary functions of the mouth are two-fold: eating and speaking.

I was never schooled in what I understand the proponents of the tongue-arch as a system, but I gather that concentrating on the motion of the tongue seems to assist some players, particularly in register changes among other aspects. I do agree that the entire mouth and surrounding area are a unique and sophisticated system when it comes to playing a wind instrument and that many elements combine to provide the results our “ears” aim to achieve.

The Bernoulli Effect/Principle (aka “Law of Lift”) is something to which I was exposed several years ago, but it was not quite made clear as to how it directly applied to brass playing. The way I have grown to understand it (and this may be completely wrong) is that we have (a very small amount of) static air around the outside of the lips inside the mouthpiece, and air moving through the lips to create a vibration. The static air provides greater air pressure as the moving air provides lesser air pressure, and the static air thereby helps to cause the lips to come together to be in a position to vibrate. Is this your understanding of how this law applies? I realize it is simplified and that what happens from player to player can vary, especially in regard to their concentration and overall approach to producing the desired result. As for the Poiseuille law of fluid dynamics…well, that one I’ll have to think about and research to understand. All I know is, I have air moving from lungs through the mouth, and that’s about it other than the use of the intercostal muscles and diaphragm.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:

Air "speed" over the tongue is NOT the air speed through the aperture. A narrowing of the path of flow will introduce a reduction of air pressure downstream due to Poiseuille's law.


Just an idle question here about the physics...

I assume you're conceptualising this as Tongue arch as a contriction, followed by an opening after the tongue arch where the pressure would drop before encountering the constriction of the apeture?

Sort of like ___/\_o with /\ being the tongue arch and o being the lip apeture?

What if the tongue is creating a fairly uniform constriction all the way to the apeture?



If the constriction at the tongue was followed afterwards by an opening of the constriction, then second constriction at the apeture, this would make tongue arch useless as you say. Depending on what happens after the constriction, either the pressure would drop, or the pressure would equalise across the whole system, in either case this would make tongue arch irrelevant as you suggest. But if the constriction is uniform or increases towards the apeture, doesn't this move the pressure change until after the apeture? Just as with the air-compressor nozzle analogy?

Also, the tongue arch itself can be irrelevant, just a neccessary movement that interacts directly with the lips in a way that provides apeture control in a way that means the muscles of the face do not have to do as much work to hold the apeture from being blown open by the air. A lot of people who anchor tongue have mentioned how the tongue often ends up touching one or both of the lips in the upper register.

It does also impact the jaw and lip curl as you have mentioned before.

I tend to think it is a combination of more than one of these possibilities that is occuring, with the exact balance being different depending on the individual player.

Happy to be correct on the physics involved, just some possibilities I haven't seen you discuss, unless I've missed it.
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much for posting this. IMO it's inevitable that the fluoroscopy footage will stimulate re-opening of old debates rather than settle them, but it's certainly fascinating to watch.

Mike
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:

The primary laws in play in regard to flow, pressure and velocity are Poiseuille's and Bernoulli. Poiseuille accounts for viscosity and losses, this is what is conveniently ignored by the tongue-arch-for air speed proponents.


I'm not sure that the issue of losses being accounted for, or not, is the fundamental problem with the tongue-arch-for-air-speed* argument. Doesn't it ultimately come down to not understanding Bernoulli's principle, or not even recognising that static, dynamic and total pressure are distinct properties?

Regardless of whether losses are being considered or not, it's a valid statement that the dynamic pressure will be higher in the aperture formed by the arching tongue than in the oral space behind it.

Yes, if we consider the increase in losses as the size of this aperture decreases**, we can conclude that increasing tongue arch would actually make a player less efficient if they were able to manipulate it independently of everything else (which, of course, nobody can). IIRR you've explained this clearly before.

But, even if we neglect losses, we're still left with the basic reality that this difference in dynamic pressure is incidental and can't, in and of itself, have any causative effect on what happens at the chops.

Mike

*I wonder if it would save everyone some typing time if that became an accepted acronym - TAFAS?

**Pedantry alert: anyone seriously attempting to model this wouldn't be able to use Poiseuille's law since it's not a generalised law for any relationship between cross section and losses. It's an equation for calculating the losses in a pipe of circular cross section and constant diameter, as a function of the length of the pipe. It rests on various other assumptions but is useful for solving some real-world problems - unfortunately calculating losses due to tongue arch wouldn't be one of them.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But, even if we neglect losses, we're still left with the basic reality that this difference in dynamic pressure is incidental and can't, in and of itself, have any causative effect on what happens at the chops.


There is a common error in interpretation regarding dynamic pressure.

The dynamic pressure will ONLY increase at the expense of static pressure in an equal amount (Bernoulli's law). So there is no net gain in the total pressure. Also, The air pressure bearing on the aperture is DOMINANTLY static pressure. A tiny increase of dynamic pressure introduced by a narrowing of the oral space would be not only negligible relative to the total pressure but would cause a reduction of TOTAL pressure due to the viscous effects of narrower passage (Poiseuille law)

The dynamic pressure also ONLY exists "mid-stream", not at the boundary. The aperture is at the boundary of the pressurized space and the pressure there is fully static.


Quote:
Thanks very much for posting this. IMO it's inevitable that the fluoroscopy footage will stimulate re-opening of old debates rather than settle them, but it's certainly fascinating to watch


Personally I don't see much value in x-rays of an action that I already am fully aware that is happening. AS most players do. The problem with the presentation video posted is that Keith Amstutz injects his commentary of "cause and effect" opinion that ignores the known science of flow dynamics. Not to mention, the opinion that "air-speed over the tongue" influences pitch. But there is no data or measurements to support his claim. Just some hand-waving assumptions based on layman's version of physics.

Many players feel that air flow diminishes with ascending notes. Air flow also varies with dynamic changes as well. Any claim that air-speed has anything to do with pitch falls apart with simple observation.

Quote:
What if the tongue is creating a fairly uniform constriction all the way to the apeture?


It doesn't matter where in the supply path that the constriction occurs. The pressure loss will happen. The Poiseuille's slide you posted is not a clear explanation of the concept.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It doesn't matter where in the supply path that the constriction occurs. The pressure loss will happen. The Poiseuille's slide you posted is not a clear explanation of the concept.


Can you please elaborate?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Prestage wrote:
... Regardless of whether losses are being considered or not, it's a valid statement that the dynamic pressure will be higher in the aperture formed by the arching tongue than in the oral space behind it. ...

-----------------------------------
Are you talking about the physical 'channel' / 'passage way' around the tongue that results from arching the tongue, or the 'lip aperture'?

The air pressure in the various sections will be different when there is air-flow, compared to a no-air-flow situation.

My view is that the benefit of tongue arch to 'pitch adjustment' is that it can affect 'lip posture' (Darryl's term), not that it has any useful influence on the oral cavity air.

Trying to incorporate 'scientific principles' about the dynamics of air flow and pressure doesn't help players understand or achieve the necessary 'lip posture' and internal air pressure adjustments.
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Last edited by JayKosta on Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:

The dynamic pressure also ONLY exists "mid-stream", not at the boundary. The aperture is at the boundary of the pressurized space and the pressure there is fully static.


I think this is a great point to state explicitly because the quasi-physical model familiar to most brass players, if re-framed in concrete physical terms, would have one stream for the entire player/horn system with the downstream boundary at the bell opening.

Mike
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:

Are you talking about the physical 'channel' / 'passage way' around the tongue that results from arching the tongue, or the 'lip aperture'?


The former, although I was specifically referring to the point along the tongue's length where the cross-sectional area of the channel is smallest.

JayKosta wrote:

The air pressure in the various sections will be different when there is air-flow, compared to a no-air-flow situation.

With no flow, the dynamic pressure will be zero at every point and therefore the total pressure will equal the static pressure, which will be the same at every point. With flow, the total pressure at the upstream end will be the same as under no flow. However, the total pressure will decrease along the flow path and the ratio of static to dynamic pressure will vary along the path. (This is all assuming the total force applied to the air in the lungs remains constant.)

JayKosta wrote:

My view is that the benefit of tongue arch to 'pitch adjustment' is that it can affect 'lip posture' (Darrly's term), not that it has any useful influence on the oral cavity air.


Agreed

JayKosta wrote:
Trying to incorporate 'scientific principles' about the dynamics of air flow and pressure doesn't help players understand or achieve the necessary 'lip posture' and internal air pressure adjustments.

These topics are interesting for their own sake (although admittedly only to a tiny minority of brass players!) As to whether it ever helps anyone with their playing, some of us believe it does, a bit, sometimes...

Mike
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was always of the opinion (note the word) that the tongue simply helped adjust the jaw to a better position.
Rod
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay, some further thoughts... when I'm practicing I never think about the air speed, or the dynamic pressure, at any point in the system. I am sometimes conscious of static pressure, but only in a vague way that equates it to total pressure. I think this is an extremely useful simplification, but it points to another one that's very counter-intuitive: the assumption that there's zero air flow out of the body through the chops! While this couldn't ever be literally true, I think it's got some potential as a concept. Afaik, the only trumpet pedagogue who's ever articulated anything equivalent is Bahb Civiletti, when he said 'I'd write a book called The No Air Trumpet Method but no one would buy it'. The familiar arguments about mouthpieces with an exit hole and a membrane aren't equivalent, although I think they make a useful point about how the instrument side of the system works. I'll gladly discuss this further if you're interested but please PM me or start a new thread - I've said more than enough in this one already!

Mike
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