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Ajay
New Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2021
Posts: 5
Location: london UK
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 Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:13 am Post subject: |
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Dear All
thank you old school euph for the information, that has been very helpful, and i hope as a new member i haven't opened a rabbit hole and created an argument.
I just want a martin committee because its cheaper than buying a porsche for my midlife crisis!.
I think ill just have to try and find a decent large bore that's not too knackered.
All in to buy one of these new B.A.C martins with import is £3890.00 ($5488.20), and that's a lot of money if i don't like it, and its not for work, its for me and myself playing in my study to my kids.
i think someone should just make a straight copy, warts and all, i don't see the shame in it.
Its a bit like when people buy a classic car and EV it, the body is the same but the souls gone, its faster its more reliable, its better in every way, but its not that car anymore, so i guess i'm just going to have to find an original.
Uk Horn, thanks also, i might pm you? i think that's the jargon, does the guy who got one over here think its worth what he coughed up happy with it?, and don't answer that if hes on here! don't want to start another barny!!
and is B.A.C the new martin factory that's stated on the martin brasswind page?
Thanks everyone, and as my old trumpet teacher Godfrey Kneller said 'Laddy its not the instrument, its the person on the end of it' which i still take as gospel  |
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UK Horn
New Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2021
Posts: 2
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Hi Ajay,
I see you are posting from London, so not too far away.
The instrument is here, and I am pretty sure that the owner would be OK with you trying it out.
I am guessing that the trumpet is indeed assembled by BAC and valves certainly feel Chinese. That is not necessarily bad and the alignment, compression and running all feel fine. Not sure what you are actually paying for though. I generally tell customers that the best trumpet is the one that suits you. If it costs £100.00 you are lucky. If you can only play Monets then maybe not so lucky!
I don't know if the owner does forums, but I don't think he is too happy with his purchase, and we are already talking about stripping it and putting it back together to make the tuning and slotting more comfortable for him.
It seems like there was little information available to him as to what the specifications might be, and from the knowledge he had gained through research thought that he was purchasing something that was more similar to the original Committees.
Your plan to buy an original, as a mid-life purchase is IMO much better than buying a Porsche. A good original Committee should make you smile every time you pick it up. Valves, tuning and even-tone should all be spot on and not forgiven just because it is old. Most importantly, it should have soul and become a lifelong friend.
Please don't buy a Porsche on line, only to find it is a Dongfeng with Porsche livery!
Happy for you to PM me.
Last edited by UK Horn on Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Ajay wrote: | | I just want a martin committee because its cheaper than buying a porsche for my midlife crisis!. |
Ajay - now that you have stated this as your goal, I would like to offer some advice - buy a vintage Martin.
It sounds like you are looking to own the mystique, to get in touch with the sound and feel of a point in history. That is a very different thing from looking for a tool for work (for which I always lean toward modern tech).
The next question is which point in time?
The Martin Handcraft Committee was designed in 1938 and built into WWII, and apparently for a short time after. Schilke took a lot from the Martin Handcraft Imperial, but mixed in his Holton background and Llewellyn influences. It has a dark full sound, characteristic of where tonal expectations were heading in the late Depression, as the trumpet adapted to its role having replaced the cornet in jazz applications. It slots more solidly than any other Schilke design that I know of - and very differently from the later Committees.
The second generation Martin Committee (no more "Handcraft") was among the Schilke consulting projects after the war (the redesign of the Imperial into what later became the Martin Magna being another notable one). Many elements of the design were changed, not least of which is the leadpipe, and all three bore sizes of the horn became known for the exceptionally loose slotting properties that allowed skilled players to be very creative. These are the Committees that you typically hear about.
Later in the second generation, the Martin Deluxe comes along which is a Martin Committee in heavy nickel trim - but which also has some other tweaks to the bore profile, mass placement and couplings. It is a heavier, more stable, Committee - but still on the squirrelly side for the weaker player. These are also very popular, though some call them "not a true Committee" (which I would dispute). As you are looking for a trophy, this model might not be the best choice.
Finally, we get to the Ramirez Committee which, Schilke's "messed up my horn" comment not withstanding, is another collectable, and popular, Committee form. Miles played the earlier Committee, but really seemed to favor the later ones that were hand built for him by Ramirez and the Holton team - and finished in a distinctive process that involved engraving after application of heavy, brightly colored, lacquer and then gold plating the engraved lines. (those Miles horns are great trophies, but the last one to sell was over $20K). The standard 3rd Generation Committees come up from time to time, usually in good shape, and for several hundred extra, some are out there in those colors Miles liked - just not engraved and over-plated.
As you ae looking for a Committee to "have a Committee" as it were, don't waste your time and money on anything other than the collectable originals.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ajay wrote: | | is B.A.C the new martin factory that's stated on the martin brasswind page? |
Yes.
I've spoken about the positives as I see them of the Martin Brasswind Committee, but in fairness, there are negatives too.
The first of these, in my opinion, is packaging this horn in the MBW gimmick. The Martin family had nothing to do with the Committee. It makes no sense.
Second, it adds a lot of cost inserting a middleman, and thus far I don't see any evidence that the added marketing layer is helping from a business perspective - in fact I think its hurting.
Third, as evidenced in the most recent posts, reviving a classic name brings with it expectations in the mind of the customer that may not be in alignment with the product design goals of the project. The words "slotting" and "intonation" are key in that recent post. This customer, I assume, had the loose slotting and unique intonation characteristics of the second generation in mind, and was not satisfied - he would feel similarly I am sure if I handed him my all-original Handcraft Committee. This is why I place so much emphasis in my posts on this horn not being a copy, but being a new extension of the tradition that spans three+ distinctively unique vintage instruments linked by a common tonal concept.
Lastly, I personally believe that if this horn had been brought to market, without the Martin family link, without any mention of "Committee", people would be talking about what a unique horn it was in its own right. Like the A9 and others, there is clear evidence that the market has interest in Committee-like properties, but the direct association, a project inherited from Kanstul, brings with it the baggage of market preconceptions that are different from person to person.
I am glad Ajay (it seems) has the opportunity to try the horn. That's the only way to judge how any instrument works for you.
More generally, to anyone who has their heart set on the precise behaviors of a mid-century second generation Committee: find and restore one. You will not be happy with a more modern horn (too many of the unique characteristics are things the rest of us see as flaws, and modern makers simply wont do)
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ajay wrote: | ...
and is B.A.C the new martin factory that's stated on the martin brasswind page? ... |
--------------------------
maybe ...
It likely depends on the success of the BAC/MBW project, and whether BAC has any legal 'ownership' of the MARTIN or COMMITTEE names.
As I see it, BAC is the supplier of the instruments being sold by and under the MBW name/brand.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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