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Don’t need a fluegelhorn?


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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:35 am    Post subject: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I had the same experience with a GR FD and a very deep Tilz mouthpiece on my rotary and on my former C trumpet, which had a fairly fast taper bell (I think this it it, the bell opened rather early). Also had a Wick 3FL for a while but didn’t like the rim. You really have to watch the intonation, though.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not surprised at this. I know of one player who used cornet for an entire (musical theatre) show, and just switched mpcs to get the sound he wanted...very shallow to very deep. He was able to get quite a contrast. I sat next to him to view the show, since I was subbing for a few performances. I didn't have quite the same arsenal, so out came some different horns when I played. The ensemble was only tpt/keyboard/bass/drums, and if you're doing something like that, then having a flugel in hand would not be that critical; however, if you're in a section of players doubling on flugel, and especially visible on stage, it might be a different matter! The rest of the section might be like..."What is this? Baby flugelhorn night?!"
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what dstpt is saying. Sound is one thing but appearance is sometimes also important. I once went to play a gig band gig and only had a cornet available to use. Even though I could make it sound very much like a trumpet by using a very shallow cup mouthpiece I still got asked why I wasn’t playing a trumpet.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rwwilson wrote:
I understand what dstpt is saying. Sound is one thing but appearance is sometimes also important. I once went to play a gig band gig and only had a cornet available to use. Even though I could make it sound very much like a trumpet by using a very shallow cup mouthpiece I still got asked why I wasn’t playing a trumpet.


Effort can be a factor, too. My Connstellation 38A sounds quite flugelish with a deep Yamaha David King mouthpiece, but between the mouthpiece and the .485 bore, it takes a lot of work to a) keep enough air support going and b) not be a quarter note flat with the tuning slide all the way in. Much easier to sound like a flugelhorn on my flugelhorn
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intonation, as I also said earlier, is an issue - looks like other people have experienced the same thing. This ties into the effort aspect just mentioned: while I occasionally like the very soft sound I can produce with a very deep mouthpiece I’d very careful using such a piece for a whole, long gig. Lotta work over a few hours.

Appearance really is not a concern for me, but I am an amateur. I have used (and will use again) a rotary trumpet in a rock/pop setting and it worked just fine. Most people see a „strange“ trumpet (if they care at all) but as long as it sounds like a trumpet they are fine.

This may be different in a pro setting, but really if I only had a few bars to use a flugel in a whole evening I would not be too concerned about appearance and think the OP (or anyone) could in fact get away with his concept of just switching mouthpieces (is this the long sought-after excuse for buying a cornet ?)
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:06 pm    Post subject: Don't need a flugelhorn? Reply with quote

I think people are very perceptive. As a life long fan I always thought that Chet Baker on the trumpet was very much like Chet Baker on the flugelhorn, too.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess it really depends on your use case. If you're playing in a section where everyone plays flugelhorn, then the cornet may stand out as too different. But for solos it'd really be up to the creative insights of the person performing the solo (or the conductor). In those instances, it might not even matter if the sound isn't exactly the same.

Concierto de Aranjuez for example, sounds great on flugelhorn...but it's also pretty nice on trumpet.

EDIT: also found a cornet version.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concierto de Aranjuez is a dangerous piece because it will be VERY soon too 'corny' as Bix would say. The solo part is written for classical guitar so the melody got a little tricky when stretched out. But opinions may differ.
Even this one here under is on the edge but if you speak about C. de A. on trumpet...?
But Miles often used also that weird Martin flügelhorn on his records with Gil Evans, at least in the parts without the Harmon. That flügelhorn sounds not as a regular flügel but more as a trumpet with a cornet flavour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpRXA3lFrqM&ab_channel=MilesDavisVEVO
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
This may be different in a pro setting, but really if I only had a few bars to use a flugel in a whole evening I would not be too concerned about appearance and think the OP (or anyone) could in fact get away with his concept of just switching mouthpieces (is this the long sought-after excuse for buying a cornet ?)


That reads like you are looking for someone to say yes, so... yes. Cornets are loads of fun and many great vintage horns can be found at a lower price point than vintage trumpets. The sheer variety of wraps, bores, materials, and designs over the years can be a bit daunting.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! Now I am all set In fact I have been pondering a cornet but really think I have no use for it right now. Saving up the money for a really good bass trumpet but who knows what’s next … and yes, I have realized that there a good cornets on the used market for decent prices. It’s funny how they are just so much less popular than trumpets in spite of the fact that especially shepherds crook horns look so cool.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got to a gig one night and one of the valves on my flugel wasn't working - I was working with a HS jazz band at the time and let one of my students use it for a solo, and I suspect that it got banged into something because the stem was flat out bent.

In any case, I never "needed" a flugel on this gig - some of the charts for this wedding band had it notated, but it was always my choice. I had a few gigs were space for the band was so tight, I only set up for my trumpet because I didn't want to give up the floor space for the flugel.

In any case, on that gig, I simply swapped in a deep trumpet mouthpiece and colored the sound with my chops and got by just fine on the ballads that called for flugel.

I guess context would matter though - in a big band section of flugelhorns, it'd be best to have an actual flugel, but I've gotten by in the past by using a bucket mute with a trumpet to blend with flugels on a one-off basis.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Thanks! Now I am all set In fact I have been pondering a cornet but really think I have no use for it right now. Saving up the money for a really good bass trumpet but who knows what’s next … and yes, I have realized that there a good cornets on the used market for decent prices. It’s funny how they are just so much less popular than trumpets in spite of the fact that especially shepherds crook horns look so cool.


What's more, a fair number of vintage cornets, particularly from Olds and Conn, had red/rose brass or copper leadpipes, which most of the red rot trepidation out of the equation. And those Conn stainless steel valves... maybe I got lucky with the 38A I purchased a few years ago, but the horn is from 1965 and the valves are absolutely pristine. Honestly the horn looks and feels like it was designed to last centuries, not decades. Incredible build quality.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played my Conn 9A Victor cornet with a a Wick 4 mouthpiece on a flugel part one time at a rehearsal, and man, it sounded just like a flugelhorn. Well, it did until a guy showed up to play the harmony part on a real flugel, and then my cornet just sounded like a REALLY mellow cornet...


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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard pros like Arturo make any horn sound like a flugel. But most of the folks I've met and have played with who try to approximate the sound with other means (deep mouthpiece, cornet, bucket,...) don't really succeed, to my ears.

On the other hand this is art and you can and should do as you please. Only if you rise to a certain level of ensemble/gig then you could get pressure to conform. FWIW my son's ACB Doubler is very nice.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
I played my Conn 9A Victor cornet with a a Wick 4 mouthpiece on a flugel part one time at a rehearsal, and man, it sounded just like a flugelhorn. Well, it did until a guy showed up to play the harmony part on a real flugel, and then my cornet just sounded like a REALLY mellow cornet...


Spot on, Dale. We can fool ourselves with things that are close, but the bottom line is that the sound between a cornet and a flugelhorn is different, and with only one part, one can get by. However, with two or more flugelhorns, everybody needs a flugel for it to sound as intended.

Not that there is a single way a flugel sounds good, but there is a way that they blend. cheiden mentions the ACB doubler's flugel, and it is a very fine flugel, especially if you buy a Yamaha leadpipe and use it with the instrument. Mine is perfect for pop flugelhorn, way bright for some other things. Peaslee Nightsongs is better on my Vintage One, as is Lightening Fields and many other solo works.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
I played my Conn 9A Victor cornet with a a Wick 4 mouthpiece on a flugel part one time at a rehearsal, and man, it sounded just like a flugelhorn. Well, it did until a guy showed up to play the harmony part on a real flugel, and then my cornet just sounded like a REALLY mellow cornet...



Those 9As really were beautiful horns.
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1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
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2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Those 9As really were beautiful horns.

Yes, they are. I’m very lucky to have found one in such nice condition, since they’re so rare.
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I posted my original comments I was more focused on the ability to use an actual fluegelhorn mouthpiece with the Olds cornet. I would never claim that it could be used to blend with other fluegelhorns in a given ensemble since different horns with different mouthpieces can sound so different. This applies not only to fluegelhorns but also cornets and trumpets.

I believe that there is a continuum of sound with these three instruments with considerable overlap. Solo players can pick the sound that they like. Ensemble players are required to conform.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rwwilson wrote:
When I posted my original comments I was more focused on the ability to use an actual fluegelhorn mouthpiece with the Olds cornet. I would never claim that it could be used to blend with other fluegelhorns in a given ensemble since different horns with different mouthpieces can sound so different. This applies not only to fluegelhorns but also cornets and trumpets.

I believe that there is a continuum of sound with these three instruments with considerable overlap. Solo players can pick the sound that they like. Ensemble players are required to conform.


Years ago, I discovered that a small Morse taper flugelhorn mouthpiece would fit my 1949 Olds Ambassador. Intonation was a little squirrley, but it had a really nice cornet sound. When a brass band was forming in our city and I was asked to join, I thought the Olds would be just the thing. After a few months, though, I began the search for a better cornet...lol
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