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Don’t need a fluegelhorn?


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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rwwilson wrote:


I believe that there is a continuum of sound with these three instruments with considerable overlap. Solo players can pick the sound that they like. Ensemble players are required to conform.


This is also exactly my point of view, forget the "true" cornet sound or the "too trumpetty' flügelsound, it's all part of the whole sound spectrum.

"True" sounds are only useful when necessary for particular reasons, like blending in a section.

And in fact I think even that is exaggerated, I remember photographs of a cornet in a trumpet section (like Bix with Paul Whiteman) and a rotary idem.
And Juan Tizol played valve trombone in Duke's trombone section for years, something I never experienced in my (trombone) bigband life.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree and have no problem playing jazz or funk on my rotary. Again, in a professional setting, you’ll need to match, I guess (but look at Claudio Roditi and Jimmy Owens). Otherwise I’d play what works best.
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joelf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

Rwwilson wrote:
I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances.


What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.

But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.

I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought...
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

joelf wrote:
Rwwilson wrote:
I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances.


What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.

But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.

I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought...


Several outfits - Monette, Curry, Austin Custom Brass, etc. - make very deep v "hybrid" mouthpieces for trumpet to give a pseudo-flugelhorn timbre. They can be fun to play around with, and certainly cheaper than another horn!
_________________
1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
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joelf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
joelf wrote:
Rwwilson wrote:
I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances.


What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.

But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.

I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought...


Several outfits - Monette, Curry, Austin Custom Brass, etc. - make very deep v "hybrid" mouthpieces for trumpet to give a pseudo-flugelhorn timbre. They can be fun to play around with, and certainly cheaper than another horn!


What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?...
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joelf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
joelf wrote:
Rwwilson wrote:
I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances.


What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.

But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.

I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought...


Several outfits - Monette, Curry, Austin Custom Brass, etc. - make very deep v "hybrid" mouthpieces for trumpet to give a pseudo-flugelhorn timbre. They can be fun to play around with, and certainly cheaper than another horn!
Thanks.

It's not the money or anything but the fact that I'm not ready for another horn. I'm trying to master lip buzzes and long and pedal tones and playing some easier diatonic tunes---and not too well either. When the time's right I'll know.

But the deeper MP sounds good---once I get a bit more control of breath and intonation...
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

joelf wrote:
But the deeper MP sounds good---once I get a bit more control of breath and intonation...


If you'd like an example of what a deep V mouthpiece can do, Trent Austin often uses different mouthpieces in his video's to show what an instrument can sound like with different mouthpieces.

joelf wrote:
What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?...

Though I haven't played any, I'm quite a fan of the concept of hybrid horns. What I like most about them is that their designers are trying to break the mold and experiment in a 'ok, so what else can we do' fashion.
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joelf
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
joelf wrote:
But the deeper MP sounds good---once I get a bit more control of breath and intonation...


If you'd like an example of what a deep V mouthpiece can do, Trent Austin often uses different mouthpieces in his video's to show what an instrument can sound like with different mouthpieces.
I much prefer the 1st---not interested in a brassy, loud sound or acrobatics,

BTW, that guy can PLAY that horn! Beautiful sound & concept...
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joelf
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This cornet Austin's selling is TEMPTING!

Why is it so cheap? Wondering what the 'catch' is?

Or maybe it's a real catch!...

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/1940-conn-80a-cornet-in-silver-plate-with-quick-change-tuning/
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve purchased several vintage cornets and have found that they are usually less expensive than equivalent trumpets. Lately though I’ve seen horns listed for ridiculously high prices, often by sellers that have no idea of their real value. This being said, I don’t think the price on this horn is too far off. My main caution to a new buyer of vintage horns is make sure the valves aren’t damaged or too worn. Many sellers don’t show a picture of, or comment on the valves. A valve rebuild costs over $400.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

joelf wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
joelf wrote:
Rwwilson wrote:
I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances.


What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.

But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.

I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought...


Several outfits - Monette, Curry, Austin Custom Brass, etc. - make very deep v "hybrid" mouthpieces for trumpet to give a pseudo-flugelhorn timbre. They can be fun to play around with, and certainly cheaper than another horn!


What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?...


I've heard it's amazing. As it should be for the price of a slightly used Honda Civic!
_________________
1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joelf wrote:
This cornet Austin's selling is TEMPTING!

Why is it so cheap? Wondering what the 'catch' is?

Or maybe it's a real catch!...

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/1940-conn-80a-cornet-in-silver-plate-with-quick-change-tuning/


Trent Austin & Austin Custom Brass is/are one of the best and most honest brass stores around. I don't think I've ever come across a bad word about them, and I've always been more than satisfied with my purchases from them. The low price, in my non-expert opinion, is a result of the stated condition of the horn (some compression loss in the valves, some plating wear, etc.), Conn made about a zillion of these 80As, and as a Conn cornet from before the mid-1950s, it needs a short shank cornet mouthpiece.
_________________
1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
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austincustombrass
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joelf wrote:
This cornet Austin's selling is TEMPTING!

Why is it so cheap? Wondering what the 'catch' is?

Or maybe it's a real catch!...

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/1940-conn-80a-cornet-in-silver-plate-with-quick-change-tuning/


No "catch" just a great deal.

Call us if you have questions. 816-410-0826
_________________
As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.

It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.

Cool Links here:
https://linktr.ee/austincustombrass
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joelf
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

austincustombrass wrote:
joelf wrote:
This cornet Austin's selling is TEMPTING!

Why is it so cheap? Wondering what the 'catch' is?

Or maybe it's a real catch!...

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/1940-conn-80a-cornet-in-silver-plate-with-quick-change-tuning/


No "catch" just a great deal.

Call us if you have questions. 816-410-0826
Once I advance enough on trumpet (see above and in Fundamentals) and thus will be ready I will. YOU DA MAN!!...
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

joelf wrote:
What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?...

Soul Eyes is one of my absolute favorite recordings.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
joelf wrote:
This cornet Austin's selling is TEMPTING!

Why is it so cheap? Wondering what the 'catch' is?

Or maybe it's a real catch!...

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/1940-conn-80a-cornet-in-silver-plate-with-quick-change-tuning/


Trent Austin & Austin Custom Brass is/are one of the best and most honest brass stores around. I don't think I've ever come across a bad word about them, and I've always been more than satisfied with my purchases from them. The low price, in my non-expert opinion, is a result of the stated condition of the horn (some compression loss in the valves, some plating wear, etc.), Conn made about a zillion of these 80As, and as a Conn cornet from before the mid-1950s, it needs a short shank cornet mouthpiece.

I've got a similar vintage 80A. A couple of notes. The one pictured doesn't seem to have provision for the mechanism that simultaneously pulls the 1st and 3rd slides when you pull the main slide to "A". And as was mentioned it plays noticably better with the vintage mouthpiece.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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austincustombrass
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
joelf wrote:
This cornet Austin's selling is TEMPTING!

Why is it so cheap? Wondering what the 'catch' is?

Or maybe it's a real catch!...

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/1940-conn-80a-cornet-in-silver-plate-with-quick-change-tuning/


Trent Austin & Austin Custom Brass is/are one of the best and most honest brass stores around. I don't think I've ever come across a bad word about them, and I've always been more than satisfied with my purchases from them. The low price, in my non-expert opinion, is a result of the stated condition of the horn (some compression loss in the valves, some plating wear, etc.), Conn made about a zillion of these 80As, and as a Conn cornet from before the mid-1950s, it needs a short shank cornet mouthpiece.

I've got a similar vintage 80A. A couple of notes. The one pictured doesn't seem to have provision for the mechanism that simultaneously pulls the 1st and 3rd slides when you pull the main slide to "A". And as was mentioned it plays noticably better with the vintage mouthpiece.


FYI they stopped making the 80A's with the mechanisms around 1939.
_________________
As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.

It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.

Cool Links here:
https://linktr.ee/austincustombrass
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

austincustombrass wrote:
FYI they stopped making the 80A's with the mechanisms around 1939.

Mine must precede 1939 in that it has the attachment points for the mechanism though unfortunately, the mechanism is missing.

Plays nicely with the stock mouthpiece which doesn't agree with my chops. Plays just alright with a modern mouthpiece.

If I ever get motivated I'll be shopping for a better mouthpiece, new leadpipe, and if I can find or make it, the tuning mechanism.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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joelf
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
joelf wrote:
What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?...

Soul Eyes is one of my absolute favorite recordings.
If that's the one with Jimmy Heath & a big band on about half the tunes it's flugelhorn.

Or am I thinking of another title with 'Eyes'? Think so, but can't name it right now...
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? Reply with quote

joelf wrote:
cheiden wrote:
joelf wrote:
What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?...

Soul Eyes is one of my absolute favorite recordings.
If that's the one with Jimmy Heath & a big band on about half the tunes it's flugelhorn.

Or am I thinking of another title with 'Eyes'? Think so, but can't name it right now...

No big band on this one. From Allmusic...
"Art Farmer had switched to the flumpet (a customized hybrid of the fluegelhorn and the trumpet created especially for him) by the time of this 1991 concert, which was recorded at the Blue Note in Fukuoda, Japan. Accompanied by Geoff Keezer (a talented pianist heard near the very beginning of his professional career), bassist Kenny Davis, and drummer Lewis Nash, Farmer's playing is at its peak, with thoughtful almost compositional solos, as liner note writer Gene Lees infers. After a relaxed opening take of "Time on My Hands," the quartet cuts loose a bit with a brisk flight through "Will You Still be Mine." Mal Waldron's "Soul Eyes" has rarely packed as an emotional punch, while the waltzing "I'm Old Fashioned" is joyful. Art Farmer fans should definitely acquire this highly recommended (but now deleted) CD before it becomes too difficult to find."
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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