• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Besson BE723 vs 1000 series cornet?



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Cornet/Flügelhorn
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:56 am    Post subject: Besson BE723 vs 1000 series cornet? Reply with quote

Hi all,

Just wondering if some of the THers have played these two cornets before, what do you think? One was Besson’s intermediate cornet, and one was the more recent student model..

The reason I ask is because I am in the market to buy a cornet, and these two are available in my local market. BE723 is roughly 70% more expensive than the 1000 series... Both are in very good condition..

Thanks in advance!
PS. Thanks p76 who has already kindly provided me some info on the BE723..
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not played either of these instruments however I have owned a few Boosey and Hawkes instruments and Boosey strongly influenced Besson.

I believe that Boosey and Hawkes are very underrated instruments they were always without exception made up to a quality and never down to a price.

The Besson international 728 is part of the original series of Boosey and Hawkes instrument range and shares many common components from the very much more expensive sovereign 927 which was as good as you can get as a professional cornet in the British Brass Band tradition.

This document I link to describes the Boosey and Besson instruments and their lineage and the 728 is described towards the bottom below the echo cornet section. The 1000 is not described.

I believe the 1000 is a modern Besson design and is a solid and well built student grade instrument that punches beyond its weight but the 728 is far better in design and execution than this and is likely to have greater potential as a giant killer than the 1000.

http://www.ecalpemos.org/2012/08/my-definitive-guide-to-sovereign-cornet.html

Boosey and Hawkes always pair well with Wick mouthpieces, and a Wick 4b is a general standard for the BBB sound if that fits your tone concept.

Given this information I would strongly consider the Besson 728 as the superior instrument of the two the only caveat being that around this time inconsistencies in manufacturing in Boosey and in Besson are said to have plagued Boosey and Hawkes and made it essential to play test the instruments before purchase.

If I knew nothing else about the Besson 1000 and the Besson international 728 than this document and the general information available about Besson and the 1000. I would take the plunge and grab the 728.

There is no substitute for play testing. Having said that I never had the chance to play test any Boosey and Hawkes instrument before purchase but they all play beautifully.

The quality of Boosey around the time of the 728 in my experience was beyond excellent.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I have not played either of these instruments however ...


Please STOP!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there are no replies from anyone who has played both these instruments then the OP is left completely in the dark and has had no help whasoever from this site.

If I have a little information that might help the OP reach a decision then I will provide it.

Do not try to silence me delano

And I am stating in my reply that all I have is imformation and no experience playing these instruments so the OP can choose to use it or not.

I dont see you contributing delano but I do see you trying to prevent the OP discovering information that might help make a decision.

Are you opposed to sharing information that might help them delano

No delano I will not shut up

You stop.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bean_counter
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 125
Location: Oswego, IL

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to own a Besson 1000, played it when I started out in a British style brass band a couple of years ago. It's a nice horn that plays well, but it's still a student horn.
_________________
Kevin Mc
Strad 180s37 (07 'True Bach'), Schilke 18 or 18B4
anon OTS Bb Saxhorn, Berliner valves c. 1860
Eclipse cornet (Yellow, Bauerfeind) DW 4B Heritage
Cousnon clairon Bb
'60s Besson tenor horn DW 3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
arthurtwoshedsjackson
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2020
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:

There is no substitute for play testing. Having said that I never had the chance to play test any Boosey and Hawkes instrument before purchase but they all play beautifully.


That’s a broad generalization. As we discussed in your quality control thread, every instrument company produces a range of quality ranging from garbage to something better, which is sometimes top quality. Besson/Boosey were no exception. I’ve owned a late 90s Besson 700 series made-in-England instrument that was junk (purchased new) as well as mid-70s horns that were well-made and played beautifully. I’ve also played B&H horns that fall somewhere in-between.

The OP asked about the 723, not the 728. Not sure if that matters.

Play testing/direct experience is useful. Perhaps it’s essential if one hopes to provide something resembling useful advice.


Last edited by arthurtwoshedsjackson on Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:08 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpet_cop
Veteran Member


Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 242

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
If there are no replies from anyone who has played both these instruments then the OP is left completely in the dark and has had no help whasoever from this site.

If I have a little information that might help the OP reach a decision then I will provide it.


Not that I have a real horse in this race but, you didn't contribute any actual first hand knowledge of how the instruments compare. you've only muddied the waters with what you think based upon hear-say and offering a review of an instrument it might be based on they might be based on.

I'm certainly not saying shut up, but your opinion that your post here was helpful is at best questionable. Friendly? Absolutely! But considering you didn't even make a comparison to the actual Besson cornet OP is talking about, the 723, it isn't helpful. Now perhaps it was a typo, and if so I apologize for being harsh but the fact of the matter is you have no first hand experience playing either horn, and inspired or not the horns are in fact different instruments and could perform differently.

OP the 1000 series instruments are fantastic horns for their price point. When I did more brass band playing a section mate of mine had one and I played it for a rehearsal and I thought it was characteristic of a cornet, while not being as open as a Sovereign model. I also owned a 1000 series trumpet and enjoyed it for it's nice playing and clear sound. A good traditional cornet piece will go a long way in helping to get your sound.
_________________
Good Ol' Boy ID#3624360
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:14 pm    Post subject: any infor Reply with quote

Quite right it was a typo apologies for that.

The 723 is mentioned in the document linked to.

Glad to see you guys are on your toes.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bob Stevenson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1139
Location: Essex, England

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played both instruments.

The 700 series was a mid priced range made here in the UK....a good band cornet but not a soloists instrument and not really applicable to the higher sections of the BBB world. There's nothing wrong with it it's just that there are better cornets for more serious playing. As has been mentioned, some of the parts are also found on the Sov. Most 700 series were well made and finished not allowing for the management crisis in the mid 1990's.

Spare parts are available and the valves are the 'microbor' invention which are superb in use and if respected need never wear out...although the plastic spring guide/washer may need replacing from time to time.

The 1000 series was made in India in a factory set up by B&H engineering staff using the mandrels from the 600 cornet. Despite unpopularity in the UK band world due to the historic unhappiness with B&H and it's doubtful marketing policies, the 1000 was the cheapest UK cornet for some time and had much to recommend it. Side by side with the 600 cornet it plays better and has everything required for training young soloists....a 'fully aeorobatic' cornet which performs far in excess of it's humble heritage.

Fit and finish of 1000 is good although it's a very inexpensive instrument...valves work well although they are not microbors......comes as a complete kit for young or back seat players.......does no thave triggers but a good soloist can sound just as good on a 1000 as on a Sov. 1000 later became 1020,..essentially the same.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Stevenson wrote:
I have played both instruments.

The 700 series was a mid priced range made here in the UK....a good band cornet but not a soloists instrument and not really applicable to the higher sections of the BBB world.

...

Fit and finish of 1000 is good although it's a very inexpensive instrument...valves work well although they are not microbors......comes as a complete kit for young or back seat players.......does no thave triggers but a good soloist can sound just as good on a 1000 as on a Sov. 1000 later became 1020,..essentially the same.


Hi Bob,

From a player’s perspective, does it matter a lot when the 700 series has only the 3rd valve trigger and no 1st value thumb hook vs 1000 series that has the thumb hook and the finger ring?

As both cornets have same bore (.46”) and similar bell size (121mm vs 120mm), would you say that the sound produced by the two cornets to be very similar? How about ease of play?
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 652

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:01 am    Post subject: Thumb hook Reply with quote

I agree sound quality should be the most important thing. Buy the cornet that sounds better and fits your needs.
That being said, if the 1st slide trigger and 3rd adjustable ring bothers you. Either live with it or change if possible.
Yes I don't like the 1st slide trigger or 3rd slide adjustable ring. Sometimes it can't be changed. Have sold horns due to that.
_________________
No musical instrument at this time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
TKSop
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1720
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to be contentious here and disagree that sound is absolutely point #1.

Intonation is point #1 - a horn that sounds nice but has horrible intonation flaws is going to force things to be lipped around and that will kill consistency in tone, as well as being unnecessarily tiring.

With brass instruments where "everything affects everything" is very much the case, consistency and quality of build is important - especially if you're not going to test the example you intend to buy or aren't (yet?) capable of analysing instruments enough to know which are good or bad horns.

Bob's pretty much hit the nail on the head for me - they're both good designs.

The 723 will be better executed and (anecdotally!) among the handful of each that I've briefly played I haven't seen a bad 723, and have seen a bad 1000 - this could be pure luck, or it could be the improved consistency and QA that a higher ticket horn should give you.

If the question is "is the 723 worth paying more for" then the answer in playing terms (at least for me) definitely yes - but it depends on your usage (frequent? Infrequent?) and whether you can justify that cost.
If the question is "is the 1000 series likely to be 'good enough' or do I need to pay the extra and get the 723" then the answer is yes as long as you're not getting a bad one, it's good enough (though this is the same for any horn) and you don't have to spend the extra unless you can justify it.

IMHO. Hope this helps somehow.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bob Stevenson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1139
Location: Essex, England

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think which instrument the OP should choose depends on info that is not in his posts.....at the end of the day perhaps neither would be ideal, but only he can answer accordingly.

However, let me see if I can help to clear the smoke at least a little!....

Firstly, WHY do you want a cornet?.....are you already a player?....have you never played before but think it might be interesting?.......what 'level' of bands are available for you to join?....do you have access to a top soloist for guidance?...and a good teacher for all the other stuff that you will need to know?......What is the financial situation?....money no object?.....pennies tight?.......

Finally, ...what are your long term plans with a cornet?.......Going for front row seats in top ensembles?........just a social thing to play behind the pub on Thursday night?

To play the cornet well and be a front row player in a half good band is really hard and needs considerable dedication....bear this in mind!

So down to the 'nitty-gritty'......if you are really serious about gettting into band playing at a reasonable level, but have not been in bands before then get a 1000 and really thrash it every night for as long as you can,....get the best advice and teacher and try to get onto the back row of the best band within range. Start saving your pennies and in a couple of years buy a soloist level instrument that you are happy playing. Keep the 1000 as it's only a couple of hundred tied up and will be handy when you start teaching or helping the youth section.

If you banding is going to be largely social and you will be a member of your local town band then happily buy the 700 series which is a nice instrument and has the quality to last well with some ordinary care.

As regards the triggers, or lack of,.....700 has one trigger and 1000 has 'mobile' slides on 1&3.......learn to use them well but don't overthink it...if you get to the stage where you REALLY need triggers tehn you will know whats what and won't be asking advice from here,...or anywhere!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:

Bob's pretty much hit the nail on the head for me - they're both good designs.

The 723 will be better executed and (anecdotally!) among the handful of each that I've briefly played I haven't seen a bad 723, and have seen a bad 1000 - this could be pure luck, or it could be the improved consistency and QA that a higher ticket horn should give you.

If the question is "is the 723 worth paying more for" then the answer in playing terms (at least for me) definitely yes - but it depends on your usage (frequent? Infrequent?) and whether you can justify that cost.
If the question is "is the 1000 series likely to be 'good enough' or do I need to pay the extra and get the 723" then the answer is yes as long as you're not getting a bad one, it's good enough (though this is the same for any horn) and you don't have to spend the extra unless you can justify it.

IMHO. Hope this helps somehow.


Thanks for the very straight answers. I believe the cornet will be used frequently, and I am looking into joining one of the auxiliary band locally. I consider the difference between the used 723 vs used 1000 to be acceptable financially as an investment to my learning/playing for the next few years.
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Stevenson wrote:
I think which instrument the OP should choose depends on info that is not in his posts.....at the end of the day perhaps neither would be ideal, but only he can answer accordingly.

However, let me see if I can help to clear the smoke at least a little!....

Firstly, WHY do you want a cornet?.....are you already a player?....have you never played before but think it might be interesting?.......what 'level' of bands are available for you to join?....do you have access to a top soloist for guidance?...and a good teacher for all the other stuff that you will need to know?......What is the financial situation?....money no object?.....pennies tight?.......

Finally, ...what are your long term plans with a cornet?.......Going for front row seats in top ensembles?........just a social thing to play behind the pub on Thursday night?

To play the cornet well and be a front row player in a half good band is really hard and needs considerable dedication....bear this in mind!

So down to the 'nitty-gritty'......if you are really serious about gettting into band playing at a reasonable level, but have not been in bands before then get a 1000 and really thrash it every night for as long as you can,....get the best advice and teacher and try to get onto the back row of the best band within range. Start saving your pennies and in a couple of years buy a soloist level instrument that you are happy playing. Keep the 1000 as it's only a couple of hundred tied up and will be handy when you start teaching or helping the youth section.

If you banding is going to be largely social and you will be a member of your local town band then happily buy the 700 series which is a nice instrument and has the quality to last well with some ordinary care.

As regards the triggers, or lack of,.....700 has one trigger and 1000 has 'mobile' slides on 1&3.......learn to use them well but don't overthink it...if you get to the stage where you REALLY need triggers tehn you will know whats what and won't be asking advice from here,...or anywhere!


I am a comeback player who played tenor horn for a few years for our local band (Auckland City Brass) when I was in uni (and before that I played a bit of trumpet in my high school band). Now that after ~20 years, I am coming back as I want my kids to learn/play brass instruments. Also, I want to give myself a second chance playing the cornet as I always love the magical sound of the cornet.

As I mentioned in my other reply, my local band (one of the top brass bands in NZ) as an academy band, so I am looking to join that and start from there, and hopefully access some experts/teachers to help my development. Thank you very much for your reply!
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2660
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want a GOOD cornet, there is one for sale over the creek in Sydney that is a corker: a Getzen 3850 in gold plate. Plays like a dream, doesn't belong to me nor do I have any involvement in it's sale (apart from if I had the cash, it would be sold).

As far as any B&H or Besson instrument, I steer clear and have not lost a moment's sleep over it.

PM me if you have an interest...

cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
GordonH
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2893
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to drag this up, but I have played both.
The 1000 is a really nice student instrument that sounds like a proper cornet. The 723 is really a professional grade cornet but it’s a medium bore.
Here is Phillip McCann playing a 723 when he was between Yamaha and Geneva:

[youtube] http://youtu.be/RBxtfRWMKPY[/youtube]

The 723 suffers from the same issues as the medium bore sovereign:
The lower register lacks character of tone.
Less dynamic range possible
The notes below bottom C are tough to get any volume on.
Pedal tones very difficult, almost impossible.

However, if you look at the old catalogues the medium bore was sold as a soloists instrument and it can certainly do that, as the video above shows.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
Sorry to drag this up, but I have played both.
The 1000 is a really nice student instrument that sounds like a proper cornet. The 723 is really a professional grade cornet but it’s a medium bore.
Here is Phillip McCann playing a 723 when he was between Yamaha and Geneva:

[youtube] http://youtu.be/RBxtfRWMKPY[/youtube]

The 723 suffers from the same issues as the medium bore sovereign:
The lower register lacks character of tone.
Less dynamic range possible
The notes below bottom C are tough to get any volume on.
Pedal tones very difficult, almost impossible.

However, if you look at the old catalogues the medium bore was sold as a soloists instrument and it can certainly do that, as the video above shows.


Hi Gordon,

You are absolute right in the description about the 723. That is why I sold it soon after acquired it as I am playing second row cornet and am playing mostly in the lower register. My daughter plays the 1000 for the various school bands and she likes it.

At the end.. I bought a used Getzen 3850 lacquer and I love it. My son plays the Getzen 800 and he loves it too (maybe because I told him that Phil Smith loves his Getzen 800 after all these years!). Lastly, but not the least, my wife is learning to play cornet on a John Packer JP271SWS, and I have to say that the sound on that cornet is beautiful. However, it looks like the silver plating on the JP is not the best of quality... similar to the Besson 1000 unfortunately..
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
Sorry to drag this up, but I have played both.
The 1000 is a really nice student instrument that sounds like a proper cornet. The 723 is really a professional grade cornet but it’s a medium bore.
Here is Phillip McCann playing a 723 when he was between Yamaha and Geneva:

[youtube] http://youtu.be/RBxtfRWMKPY[/youtube]

The 723 suffers from the same issues as the medium bore sovereign:
The lower register lacks character of tone.
Less dynamic range possible
The notes below bottom C are tough to get any volume on.
Pedal tones very difficult, almost impossible.

However, if you look at the old catalogues the medium bore was sold as a soloists instrument and it can certainly do that, as the video above shows.


Hi Gordon

Interesting what you say about the medium bore Sovereign. I remain pretty naughty regarding mouthpiece choice, and still play something with a lot smaller throat and tighter backbore than a Denis Wick cornet mouthpiece. I've bought and sold two different 928 Sovereigns, a 1990s one, and one of the (from memory) Buffet Crampon ones, from 2012. I've said many times on here, but not lately, that I experience an old stuffiness with my mouthpiece on a 928 Sovereign. It is not a tight blow, but rather an indescribable deadness of response, which goes away if I change nothing about my mouthpiece except open the throat, which makes me feel that it is simply a case of not being able to get enough air through with my regular mouthpiece, to make the 928 Sovereign respond fully. It is a completely different cornet with a larger throat, a lot more lively and responsive.

Being happy with my mouthpiece as it is, I'd therefore given up with the Sovereign, until I played a medium bore one recently, which ironically used to be mine. In the days that I was using a Bach 184ML cornet with a Bach 3C, and had just sold my 1990s Sovereign for the reason I gave above, I bought an older 927 Sovereign with microbor valves. I hated this cornet with a vengeance, as it played with what I would describe as more typical tightness/stuffiness, than the odd deadness in response I got with the 928 Sovereign.

This cornet remained in my wardrobe, rarely played (on the occasions I did take it to a rehearsal, I either went home and swapped it in the break (the beauty of at that time, playing in a band across the road from my house, alas I don't have that now), or if I was at my brass band, swapped it for a cornet out of the band cupboard.

I gifted it to my then 13 year old step daughter, who loved it and played it with a Bach 6.

She gave up playing a year or do later, and has just started again, and was complaining about the cornet now seeming stuffy (probably because she is now an adult rather than a 13 year old). I tried it with her Bach 6, and yes, there again was the horrible cornet, that I had taken home on many occasions.

I then tried it with the mouthpiece I use on my Yamaha Xeno, and wow, what a nice cornet, a bit brighter in sound, than my Xeno, and I agree, a very nice soloists instrument, with great flexibility. Definitely the one that got away, although I'm more than happy with my Xeno.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Cornet/Flügelhorn All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group