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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB valve blocks are used in Eclipse Trumpets, but they are made to Leigh McKinney's specs. He and co-owner/builder Carl Skinner make their own bells, except they have fellow UK builder-comrade Andy Taylor make some specialty bells on occasion.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2021 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
Divitt Trumpets wrote:
Goby wrote:


The most recent P. Mauriat looks to have Spiri valves (that, or spiri buys valves from Mauriat). The block, braces, and trim on the PMT-75 is identical to my DaCarbo Unica, which is supposedly built by Spiri.


Spiri makes everything for the spiri brand in house, even their plating is done in house. I visited their shop a few years ago and it is an incredible shop with so much packed in to such a small place. They make amazing instruments.
The cheaper model of the decarbo trumpet uses Carol blocks.


I have the Unica (cheaper) model DaCarbo trumpet, and it is definitely not built on a Carol block. DaCarbo flugels have a very strong resemblance to CarolBrass, but the casing on my trumpet is most certainly 2-piece. It looks slightly different from the older models, which are stamped W. Spiri above the valve block. This one just has the serial number. The newer TML model DaCarbo is $1000 cheaper than the Toni Maier signature model and has the same block as the Unica, which is why I was suspicious that they had outsourced their valve block construction.


I'm wrong. I was told it isn't Carol, but wasn't told who.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
Goby wrote:
Divitt Trumpets wrote:
Goby wrote:


The most recent P. Mauriat looks to have Spiri valves (that, or spiri buys valves from Mauriat). The block, braces, and trim on the PMT-75 is identical to my DaCarbo Unica, which is supposedly built by Spiri.


Spiri makes everything for the spiri brand in house, even their plating is done in house. I visited their shop a few years ago and it is an incredible shop with so much packed in to such a small place. They make amazing instruments.
The cheaper model of the decarbo trumpet uses Carol blocks.


I have the Unica (cheaper) model DaCarbo trumpet, and it is definitely not built on a Carol block. DaCarbo flugels have a very strong resemblance to CarolBrass, but the casing on my trumpet is most certainly 2-piece. It looks slightly different from the older models, which are stamped W. Spiri above the serial number on the valve block. This one just has the serial number. The newer TML model DaCarbo is $1000 cheaper than the Toni Maier signature model and has the same block as the Unica, which is why I was suspicious that they had outsourced their valve block construction.


I'm wrong. I was told it isn't Carol, but wasn't told who.


But they are outsourced?
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2021 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did have a funny experience with Mauriat. I played the new-ish 75 and I actually really liked the tone and blow. It comes with a removable bell, but when I asked them they said you can't order a 2nd bell separately--you only get what it comes with. That seemed really strange to me. Why have a modular trumpet if you don't sell the modular options?

I don't know if all of their 1st gen was Carolbrass either. I think the 600/660 were carol but the 700-720 seem like maybe they're a different maker? It seems like the new 71, 72, 75 continue the 700/720 tradition, so it would make sense they're a different maker.
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2021 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like dstpt mentioned with Eclipse, I've heard some builders say that they have Hoxon Gakki/Carol Brass build blocks to their specs. I've heard Jason Harrelson say that he specifically has Hoxon Gakki build blocks to his specs. Would a block that a maker says was built to their spec actually be better that than a typical Carol Brass block, or it more likely just marketing?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenix864 wrote:
... Would a block that a maker says was built to their spec actually be better that than a typical Carol Brass block, or it more likely just marketing?

-------------------------------------
It depends on what 'specs' are involved.
Examples -
Tightness (or looseness) of the pistons and casings. Max/min deviations - diameters, position of ports in piston / case, etc.
Finish of the various parts, and solder neatness.

Demanding that the item is from the 'best section' of the 'acceptable range'.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harrelson was getting HG to do two piece bronze/nickel casings. HG stopped doing two piece, so my guess is that Harrelson are doing one piece bronze now. The different (heavier) material will definitely have an effect on the sound.

Also he uses them specifically because the are amongst the tightest and most consistent in the industry.
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting; I've never heard of Hoxon Gakki making bronze casings, so it certainly would make sense as a custom option for Harrelson when building to his spec. A super tight bronze/nickle two piece block would pretty much a straight replacement for the pre-Adams Bauerfeind valves (and probably much much cheaper as well). Shame that HG stopped making them.

At minimum, it sounds like a custom maker could get the tightest/best QCed blocks from HG.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RETrumpet wrote:
Harrelson was getting HG to do two piece bronze/nickel casings. HG stopped doing two piece, so my guess is that Harrelson are doing one piece bronze now. The different (heavier) material will definitely have an effect on the sound.

Also he uses them specifically because the are amongst the tightest and most consistent in the industry.


Any of his instruments I've seen are stock yellow brass casings with nickel silver inner tubes. Never seen anything other than a yellow brass block.

I've ordered from HG (but don't use them on my instruments). Their option list has a number of choices, but there was no option for 'to my specs'.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RETrumpet wrote:
Harrelson was getting HG to do two piece bronze/nickel casings. HG stopped doing two piece, so my guess is that Harrelson are doing one piece bronze now. The different (heavier) material will definitely have an effect on the sound.

Also he uses them specifically because the are amongst the tightest and most consistent in the industry.



CarolBrass has never made a 2-piece casing. Harrelson built 50 horns on Bauerfiend (now Adams) blocks, which were bronze with nickel balusters.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bad...

Went back and checked and he was indeed talking about the old Bauerfiend blocks... I sort of combined that info in my head with some info I had from Doug Teeter on HG not doing two-piece...

Anyway, sorry for the mix-up and thanks for setting me straight.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watching ITG and it had a session "The Trumpet in Taiwan" with Chungmom Ho. The announcer said he's playing a Harmonie trumpet (the first time I've seen one in the English press). It's a great performance and worth a watch if you have the time.
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feedback@stomvi-usa
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
Jupiter is in Taiwan, but they are not affiliated with Hoxon Gakki (to my knowledge)


The list of makers who use CarolBrass parts are: Harrelson, Warburton, Thane, Taylor, Stomvi, Adams, J Landress, Puje, NYTC, Schagerl, Larson, and DaCarbo

Warburton, Thane, Stomvi, Puje, Schagerl, and Harrelson all use CarolBrass bells in addition to valve blocks. I think Schagerl's intermediate line is even assembled and finished in Taiwan as well. Adams uses Carol blocks on their "marching" trumpets and "sonic" flugelhorn. Dacarbo uses a whole CarolBrass flugelhorn with the bell flare replaced with a carbon fiber flare. Thane and Warburton use Carolbrass bells and blocks, but I think both companies assemble the slides and the rest of the horns in-house.


CarolBrass blocks are quite good, probably the best one-piece valve casing on the market today. However, it does irk me that some brands will charge exorbitant amounts of money for horns built with $300 valve blocks and $50 bells...


To be clear, Stomvi does NOT use Carol Brass parts. Everything except a few small screws are made IN HOUSE.
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blownchops
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
Warburton offered a titanium bell at one point, although I think it was brass that was then coated in a titanium finish.


This is wrong. The Warb. titanium bell was pure titanium.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting to read this thread just because so much of the conjecture has been wrong. To builders, another vote for transparency on who you are sourcing components from.

I think I now have more than ten Taiwanese instruments (Jupiter, Carol, Mauriat, Harmonie) and I've never had a problem with any of them.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blownchops wrote:
Goby wrote:
Warburton offered a titanium bell at one point, although I think it was brass that was then coated in a titanium finish.


This is wrong. The Warb. titanium bell was pure titanium.


I'm very curious how this was done, as you can not solder titanium, only braze and weld it. Attaching braces and attaching it to the trumpet would require a very special setup.
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J. Landress Brass
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used Carol valve blocks in about 10 horns I have made over the years, this was the valve block only and not slides. Everything else I made. I have been working on a series of 5 trumpets slowly over the past few months and am using Bauerfeind blocks. Everything else I am cutting and making myself.

As for other makers, many use Carol valves and which are extremely well made especially for the price. I know some of these builders also use Carol bells which are also very well made and extremely inexpensive. I see no issue in builders or makers using Carol parts as long as they are not claiming them are "making" them themselves.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J. Landress Brass wrote:
I have used Carol valve blocks in about 10 horns I have made over the years, this was the valve block only and not slides. Everything else I made. I have been working on a series of 5 trumpets slowly over the past few months and am using Bauerfeind blocks. Everything else I am cutting and making myself.

As for other makers, many use Carol valves and which are extremely well made especially for the price. I know some of these builders also use Carol bells which are also very well made and extremely inexpensive. I see no issue in builders or makers using Carol parts as long as they are not claiming them are "making" them themselves.

In my opinion, builders don’t need to identify the source of the parts they use either. I do acknowledge that some people have a desire/need to know, but for me…
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J. Landress Brass
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
J. Landress Brass wrote:
I have used Carol valve blocks in about 10 horns I have made over the years, this was the valve block only and not slides. Everything else I made. I have been working on a series of 5 trumpets slowly over the past few months and am using Bauerfeind blocks. Everything else I am cutting and making myself.

As for other makers, many use Carol valves and which are extremely well made especially for the price. I know some of these builders also use Carol bells which are also very well made and extremely inexpensive. I see no issue in builders or makers using Carol parts as long as they are not claiming them are "making" them themselves.

In my opinion, builders don’t need to identify the source of the parts they use either. I do acknowledge that some people have a desire/need to know, but for me…


I feel it's important as I believe a consumer should know what they are buying or selling. Sadly over the years I've been doing this I've seen people ripped off or sold smoke and mirrors. I recently had someone contact me about selling a horn they purchased for several thousand dollars claiming it was a "hand made" trumpet. I had never heard of the brand before and the horn was just another inexpensive Chinese horn.

That all being said, Carol makes and outstanding product and people using them should be proud to use such quality parts.
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austincustombrass
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I 100% agree with Josh.

-T
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