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Bach 72 vs 8310Z


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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This lively discussion between the similarities or lack thereof between the Bach 72 bell and the Yamaha Z, as well as the fair but hardly uniform ubiquity of the 37 / 43 / 72 names and/or mandrels and bell flares, makes me wonder if there is some comprehensive list of common trumpet bells, whether on this site or elsewhere. You know, comparing the characteristics and specifications of the Bach bells, the Yamaha bells, the Olds and Conns of days gone by, the Monettes and Adamses and all the rest.
_________________
1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
This lively discussion between the similarities or lack thereof between the Bach 72 bell and the Yamaha Z, as well as the fair but hardly uniform ubiquity of the 37 / 43 / 72 names and/or mandrels and bell flares, makes me wonder if there is some comprehensive list of common trumpet bells, whether on this site or elsewhere. You know, comparing the characteristics and specifications of the Bach bells, the Yamaha bells, the Olds and Conns of days gone by, the Monettes and Adamses and all the rest.


Zig Kanstul had a wealth of dimensional and related data from when he and Dale Olson had characterized bells and leadpipes for the original Olds Custom project. This included F.Besson, Besson & Co., FE Olds (pre-1970s), Calicchio, Bach and Mahilon bells. This would have been augmented with Zig's continuation of this characterizing the Benge bells. They determined the dimensions of the best examples they encountered, and then also derived what they thought the intended dimensions were ("best" and "corrected").

I don't know if this data survived Mark Kanstul's house-cleaning at the end. Perhaps it has been found at BAC, or remains to be - or it may be lost. It is also possible it is among the newest files in the FE Olds engineering specifications archive that was (barely) saved and is now on the opposite side of the continent from me (so not something I can access).

The challenge is that one must work from extant examples, which are often subject to unknown repair history as well as manufacturing variation. This is the reason that back in the late 60s they chose to select the "best" by playing as well as visual inspection for damage, and then derived from their imperfect data a "corrected" data set. It takes a lot of (expensive) samples, a lot of time, a lot of (even more expensive) specialized tools, and a lot of knowledge to build such a dataset.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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delano
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited, I was led astray, too far from the subject of this thread.

Last edited by delano on Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Subtropical and Subpar
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Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 615
Location: Here and there

PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
This lively discussion between the similarities or lack thereof between the Bach 72 bell and the Yamaha Z, as well as the fair but hardly uniform ubiquity of the 37 / 43 / 72 names and/or mandrels and bell flares, makes me wonder if there is some comprehensive list of common trumpet bells, whether on this site or elsewhere. You know, comparing the characteristics and specifications of the Bach bells, the Yamaha bells, the Olds and Conns of days gone by, the Monettes and Adamses and all the rest.


Zig Kanstul had a wealth of dimensional and related data from when he and Dale Olson had characterized bells and leadpipes for the original Olds Custom project. This included F.Besson, Besson & Co., FE Olds (pre-1970s), Calicchio, Bach and Mahilon bells. This would have been augmented with Zig's continuation of this characterizing the Benge bells. They determined the dimensions of the best examples they encountered, and then also derived what they thought the intended dimensions were ("best" and "corrected").

I don't know if this data survived Mark Kanstul's house-cleaning at the end. Perhaps it has been found at BAC, or remains to be - or it may be lost. It is also possible it is among the newest files in the FE Olds engineering specifications archive that was (barely) saved and is now on the opposite side of the continent from me (so not something I can access).

The challenge is that one must work from extant examples, which are often subject to unknown repair history as well as manufacturing variation. This is the reason that back in the late 60s they chose to select the "best" by playing as well as visual inspection for damage, and then derived from their imperfect data a "corrected" data set. It takes a lot of (expensive) samples, a lot of time, a lot of (even more expensive) specialized tools, and a lot of knowledge to build such a dataset.


Wow, that would be quite a resource if anyone still had it kicking around!
_________________
1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posts making negative statements about the family of another poster, even if that poster had the gap in judgement to post about family, cross a line demarcating polite discourse. I hope, and expect, this thread will soon vanish.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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trickg
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Posts making negative statements about the family of another poster, even if that poster had the gap in judgement to post about family, cross a line demarcating polite discourse. I hope, and expect, this thread will soon vanish.

I didn't think it was a gap in judgement. I prayed that video because I know for absolute fact that the playing they're doing in the video is not what's being heard - that recording was created in the studio a month or so before. I can't say that with absolute certainty about anything else out there, so I posted that as a means to say that what we saw in that original video may not have had anything to do with the audio recording, and that making a statement about differences in the sounds of the bells/trumpets might be a bit of a stretch. No more, no less.

It was absolutely not an attack on Andrea - that's a leap of logic that just doesn't work. I was merely raising the quotation of whether or not we actually know that he recorded it on the Bach in the video. It would be great if he could shed some light on it for us, i.e., how it was recorded, what mic was used, what reverb effects were used, etc.

As for the rest of it, Delano, you're starting to look... Well, those following this thread know. For all of your time and expertise/experience you claim to have, I'm surprised you haven't been more successful.
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- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Posts making negative statements about the family of another poster, even if that poster had the gap in judgement to post about family, cross a line demarcating polite discourse. I hope, and expect, this thread will soon vanish.


??? negative statements? Cross the line of a polite discourse? Not by me I hope.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Posts making negative statements about the family of another poster, even if that poster had the gap in judgement to post about family, cross a line demarcating polite discourse. I hope, and expect, this thread will soon vanish.


??? negative statements? Cross the line of a polite discourse? Not by me I hope.

You were quite disparaging of my son's guitar playing, when you knew full well that wasn't the point being made, (which is beside the point that you didn't seem to understand what was happening - we could go into a whole conversation about the 20 or so alternate tubing's he uses for different harmonic effect) unless it's a language/cultural/translation issue, but it certainly didn't seem that way.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not, you made it up out of nothing. I made a mistake to write a reaction. It was unnecessary because the case was clear for anybody anyway.
I agree with OSE that the moderators better skip this thread though for other reasons.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:

As for the rest of it, Delano, you're starting to look... Well, those following this thread know. For all of your time and expertise/experience you claim to have, I'm surprised you haven't been more successful.


Yes, that's the tragic of the real genius.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
trickg wrote:

As for the rest of it, Delano, you're starting to look... Well, those following this thread know. For all of your time and expertise/experience you claim to have, I'm surprised you haven't been more successful.


Yes, that's the tragic of the real genius.

Clearly.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
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