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Fred Trump
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Joined: 22 Jun 2021
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 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:10 pm Post subject: Bach Mt Vernon has no Model number on the Bell |
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| Does anyone know how to tell the model # of a Bach Mt Vernon? The Bell has the word Model on it, but no number after that. |
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interfx
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Joined: 25 Dec 2001
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Get the shop card from Bach. That's the only way to be sure.
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acritzer
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes. You have to check the shop card. I had one as you describe and it was a 43. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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37s are not particularly common during that period. Odds favor (slightly) a 43. There are, of course other possibilities too. You have to get the shop card info.
BTW: "Model" is supposed to be parsed with the line above as in "Stradivarius Model". 37 is a bell, not a model (even now, the model is 180 or 190), but we all use the bell mandrel as a model number anyway.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Uberopa
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Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 927
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Conventional wisdom had my 1941 NY Strad with no bell # as a 38. When I received the shop card it turned out to be a model 37. Best to get the card. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Uberopa wrote: | | Conventional wisdom had my 1941 NY Strad with no bell # as a 38. When I received the shop card it turned out to be a model 37. Best to get the card. |
37 was originally paired with the M bore. Yours is a typical 37 of the 1940s into early 50s.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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lewis
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Joined: 29 Jan 2020
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Many years ago I had a conversation with Lloyd Fillio at the Bach factory on this subject. He said that during the Mt. Vernon period if the bell model number was blank it meant that the bell was the standard one for that bore size. |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| lewis wrote: | | Many years ago I had a conversation with Lloyd Fillio at the Bach factory on this subject. He said that during the Mt. Vernon period if the bell model number was blank it meant that the bell was the standard one for that bore size. |
That's often the case, but there are enough exceptions that it's worth checking.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
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Goby
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Joined: 11 Jun 2017
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| The early Mt. Vernons ML bore models were about 50/50 odds of being a 43 or a 37. On the Bach Loyalist, there is a copy of a letter that Vincent Bach wrote to a prospective customer in 1956 where he mentions that his preference is for the 43 bell (he also makes some comments about other makers of that era... definitely worth reading). I've had a few Bachs from the 50's some of which were marked 37 or 43, and others that were unmarked but turned out to be 37's, and I've seen ebay listings for unmarked horns that ended up being 43 bells according to the shop card. I believe the later unmarked Mt. Vernon ML bore trumpets had a higher probability of being 37's, although I have nothing other than anecdotal evidence to back up that claim. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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1953 to 1962 Bach production seems to have been about 35% 43s, 30% 37s 20% split among 42, 38 & more heavily 25, and 15% on the Cs and other oddities - though those are very rough estimates. It was nothing like the overwhelming dominance of 37s in the decades since 1970.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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adagiotrumpet
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Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | 1953 to 1962 Bach production seems to have been about 35% 43s, 30% 37s 20% split among 42, 38 & more heavily 25, and 15% on the Cs and other oddities - though those are very rough estimates. It was nothing like the overwhelming dominance of 37s in the decades since 1970. |
It's my understanding that there is more to the story than just the percentages of particular bells produced. If the horn was a ML, chances are the unmarked bells were 37's or 43's. The medium bore horns often had 38 bells, and the 25 bell was used primarily on large bores. My Mt. Vernon large bore has an unmarked bell. The shop card indicates that it's a 25 bell. The other trumpet player in my brass quintet has a large bore Mt. Vernon with the 25 stamped on the bell.
That is not to say that different combinations were not available, perhaps by special order. The last time I checked, Dillon's had a ML with a 25 bell, although I don't remember whether or not it was a Mt. Vernon.
It would appear that Vincent Bach felt certain bore sizes worked best with certain bells like the 38 for medium bores and the 25 for large bores. Another example would the 65 bell, which seemed to be used primarily with the Vindabona bore. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Most of that is spot-on. The Vindabona option is not a trumpet bore though so much as a tuning slide bore that progresses from 0.453" at the inlet to 0.459" at the outlet. It can be used in any ML bore standard weight body, and entertainingly will also fit the L bore body - though that would be a bad idea. It is true that VB seemed to favor it with a 65 bell.
The placing of mandrel numbers on the bell faded out starting before the move to Mt. Vernon, and in the period of 1955-1963 was pretty standard. (though I have never seen an unmarked Mt. Vernon C/D/Eb bell) Did they vanish first on "standard" configurations? - its a good theory, but hard to prove. Another is that while recovering from the war, Bach not only scrounged materials, but labor - and that was an unnecessary step when short-handed. After Selmer bought Bach in 1962, it took a while, but they launched the model 180, designed still by VB, in late 1963. The Mt. Vernon 180s (built Nov. 1963-Dec. 1964) all carry the mandrel number on the bell crest again, and the practice then continues to the present day.
As Roy once pointed out to me, research is complicated by the fact that the vast majority of vintage Bachs get altered - and that often includes swapping bells. The only solid resource is the shop cards - and those don't say if the bell was marked or not. Its particularly an issue when a bell on a Mt. Vernon gets swapped for another unmarked one of a different mandrel, because unless you know the dimensions and have the tools, you will never find out. There are people out there thinking their horn has X bell because it was built that way, not knowing it now has Y instead.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Goby
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Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 648
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| 37 bell with a 7 leadpipe was another common configuration for medium bore Bachs of the 40's and 50's. Bach also used the 38 bell with a 7 pipe on the medium bore instruments. |
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dr-pepp
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Location: Austin TX
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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I have a good friend (and customer) who frequently comes over to my house to audition Bach Strads when a student of his is ready to upgrade. He always brings his Mt Vernon Strad, which his parents purchased NEW for him in 1958. He is not interested in ANYTHING but a standard weight, traditional leadpipe, 37 bell Strad... which is what his '58 Strad is. (so he thought) The bell is not marked and one day a few years ago I asked him if he had the shop card. He said "what's that?". I jotted down the serial number and requested the card. He was THRILLED when I got it back and he saw his name on the card. But I laughed long and hard when I was able to show him that he's been playing on a 43 bell all these years!  [/img]
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Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| dr-pepp wrote: | | He is not interested in ANYTHING but a standard weight, traditional leadpipe, 37 bell Strad... I laughed long and hard when I was able to show him that he's been playing on a 43 bell all these years! |
Did you also point out that "Stand." bell stock in 1958 was what is called lightweight today (0.020")?
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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dr-pepp
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Joined: 17 May 2004
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Location: Austin TX
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
Did you also point out that "Stand." bell stock in 1958 was what is called lightweight today (0.020")? |
Yes, I did tell him that previously. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com |
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Most of that is spot-on. The Vindabona option is not a trumpet bore though so much as a tuning slide bore that progresses from 0.453" at the inlet to 0.459" at the outlet. It can be used in any ML bore standard weight body, and entertainingly will also fit the L bore body - though that would be a bad idea. It is true that VB seemed to favor it with a 65 bell.
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If the only thing that differentiates the Vindabona is the tuning slide, why is "MLV" stamped on the valve casing? |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | If the only thing that differentiates the Vindabona is the tuning slide, why is "MLV" stamped on the valve casing? |
For part of the time the 72MLV package has been available, the 43 leadpipe has also been packaged standard. MLV on the casing in combination with 72 on the bell indicates this original configuration. In modern times, the 72s that ship with an MLV slide but the standard 25 pipe have 25 marked on the receiver to indicate that. But swap the tuning slide for a stock ML standard weight slide and the Vindobona portion is gone.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | If the only thing that differentiates the Vindabona is the tuning slide, why is "MLV" stamped on the valve casing? |
For part of the time the 72MLV package has been available, the 43 lead pipe has also been packaged standard. MLV on the casing in combination with 72 on the bell indicates this original configuration. In modern times, the 72s that ship with an MLV slide but the standard 25 pipe have 25 marked on the receiver to indicate that. But swap the tuning slide for a stock ML standard weight slide and the Vindobona portion is gone. |
I don't know that if "MLV" on the casing indicates anything different from a standard, regular weight ML valve section. Also, while the 43 lead pipe and 72 bell is a common Vindabona configuration, I believe that the 65 bell is considered to be the standard "Vindabona bell".
There's a room inside the Bach factory that contains much of Vincent Bach's original drawings for his bells and lead pipes. I know this because Ted Waggoner took me in there and showed me Vincent Bach's actual hand drawn rendering of the no. 5 bell on my New York Bach. It would be interesting to see if Bach had included any notes on the rendering of the 65 bell. It would also be interesting to know if Bach left any notes regarding different lead pipe-bore size-bell size configurations he deemed worked especially well together.
Although a bit off topic, I often wondered how Vincent Bach conceived the specs for the original Vindabona and whether or not he considered how well the 43/72 combination fit within those parameters. Having played both, the 43/72 Vindabona plays and sounds noticeably different from the 25/65 MLV combination. |
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