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EBay listings getting shady (-er) ?



 
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:25 am    Post subject: EBay listings getting shady (-er) ? Reply with quote

Maybe its just me, but in the decade and a half I have been watching trumpets, cornets and other brass on EBay, I don’t think I have ever seen so many misleading and outright dishonest postings as in recent months.

For example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MUSEUM-QUALITY-VERY-EARLY-1910-HOLTON-PRO-TRUMPET-MUST-SEE/293826864929?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
“Museum quality”. . . . OK, its in really nice shape – it’s been extensively worked on and replated (doesn’t mention that!). It is (mostly) a 1910 as advertised, yes, an exceptionally rare Holton trumpet (I am aware of a 1904/5, a 1905/6, a 1909, a late 1910 that may be modified, and that’s it other than this one for all remaining examples pre-1911. Here’s the thing: while the bell, tuning slide, receiver and leadpipe are clearly 1908-1910, and the valves are serialized 1910, and most other parts though made as late as 1928 are consistent with 1910. However, the braces between the valves and both bell and leadpipe are from Elkhorn, not Chicago, and could not predate 1918 (the bell/LP braces also appear later). How do the braces between bell, leadpipe and valves wind up needing replacement?? Something pretty bad happened to this and the 1918+ parts and wrong color gold plating in the bell flare make this not “museum quality?
The best part? That design came with 3 tuning slides. What is with this one is the fixed A slide – it cant be played in Bb. Doesn’t mention that either (and is aware of all of this for weeks now, with supporting references offered). At that price, to be misrepresenting this, wow. . . .
EDIT 7/8/21: Well, at least no one has fallen for this one yet.


Another example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/174592211209?_trksid=p11021.c100851.m5053&_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20170803121420%26meid%3Ddfe26cccff594d6a85bbe30adb91b73c%26pid%3D100851%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26mehot%3Dnone%26b%3D1%26sd%3D274645532580%26itm%3D174592211209%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D11021%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic%26brand%3DKing&ul_noapp=true
“slides work” and condition “used” (which means functions as intended except as disclosed – a policy EBay enforces strictly on buyer complaints). The King Liberty uses Esbach’s nested slide design for tuning with an A/Bb “H” slide behind. The characteristic Liberty brace is missing and the Esbach slide legs are moving independently, or stuck one to the tuning slide and one to the leadpipe. So at a minimum the quick-change doesn’t work, and more likely, these tubes moving around will drive the player trying to adjust crazy. Not disclosed – hoping no one notices and imagining EBay wont enforce the “used” definition (says “No Returns”)? Maybe – but pretty obvious issue that is not being mentioned.


Or this one that after months finally swapped word in the title and changed the description after listing it forever as a “New Holton Revelation” when it was not – as anyone can easily see from the porting of first valve or the serial #. At least this, while a bit clever still, is now not dishonest.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Holton-New-Revelation-trumpet/274638376257?hash=item3ff1b90d41:g:f-8AAOSwUOJeC3Tq



Don’t see any right now, but last week I saw two horns listed as “Gold Plated” – one was polished raw brass (you could see the polish residue and the lack of any plating edge at the stained contact points), and the other was in worn lacquer.



Then there are the ones perpetuating myths in the hope of making a buck:

1) “Holton T101 – a Bach Stradivarius copy made on the original Mt. Vernon tooling.” I saw this 4 or 5 times last year, as recently as December. Its just false. The later T-101 was an Elkhart Bach copy, the horn was bought in Elkhart and dismantled/measured at the Martin plant in 1980 to make the new tooling. The valve cap thread and piston length are not quite the same, but the rest is exact enough you can swap Bach parts. But sellers keep trying to pass-off T-101s as Mt. Vernons (ironically, tooling did go from Holton to Bach in 2008, but never the other way)

2) False claims of sterling silver bells or more such as
https://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-Yamaha-YTR-332-trumpet-sterling-silver-piece-with-hard-case/184451582512?hash=item2af22bca30:g:e24AAOSwU1dfY1bq
Or this one where the seller tries to make it some anonymous advisor’s fault that its not true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-CG-CONN-TRUMPET-374124-Concert-Grand-Cornet-Sterling-SFB/284082472547?hash=item4224a28663:g:tA8AAOSwW1Bdo3u6
Or this one where a horn with a sterling leadpipe is declared a sterling silver trumpet
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jupiter-CEB-660-Capital-Edition-Yellow-Brass-Sterling-Silver-Trumpet-with-Case/184403713249?epid=1901870311&hash=item2aef515ce1:g:1hgAAOSwm0BfOCos

3) “Holton Model 48 Llewellyn” – this might as well show a picture of a pony, one without even so much as an ice cream cone taped to its forehead, and declare it a unicorn
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Frank-Holton-1929-Model-48-Llewellyn-Trumpet-in-Mint-Collector-Playing-Condition/293794100900?hash=item44677e36a4:g:RLkAAOSwt1pfkGNP
OK, yes, this is the most perfectly preserved Llewellyn I have ever seen – it is quite a find, BUT ITS NOT A MODEL 48! (nor is the included original case a Model 48 HSC – that style case was never used with the 4th generation Revelations). The Llewellyn model was a variant of the “New Holton Revelation”, which was the same as the so-called “24-patent Revelation”, or second generation, just with the 1927 revision to first valve porting (inline instead of offset). Built 1927-1931, as supported by catalogs and all extant examples, the Llewellyn actually is more common than the base model Revelation from these years. The 2nd generation was replaced by the “Holton Revelation New Professional” line, which was the first trumpets to have model numbers (42 for the .422 bore, 46 for the .442, 30 for the .459 and 50 for the .470). As the Llewellyn was a variation on .459 bore, it, and the base, were replaced by the Model 30. That was replaced in 1937 by the model 34 Resotone, which was replaced in 1938/9 by the Model 45 and the Model 48 Revelations (Bach-style 45 and 48 “Deluxe” models were also released then). By then, Llewellyn was years dead. 1927-1931 saw a cluster of artist-linked models (Klatzkin, Llewellyn, Gustat & Berry) and after Leblanc took over in 1965 another cluster followed for the 70s and beyond (Maynard, Hirt, Brisbois, Stalh & Ellis), but in between there were no Holton Artist model trumpets. Unfortunately, the seller can point to the false entry at the HoltonLoyalist site, which after years of not responding to emails now doesn’t even list a contact one, and claim he’s doing nothing wrong. Guess if you want a lot of money for rarity, selling a mythological trumpet would make it really rare.


I mean, EBay has always been home to some shady descriptions, but it has just become so much more common. . .

Or is it just me?
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Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ronnman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have seen many misrepresented trumpets in the last 5 years. Ask for clarification, and get a response like: “this is what the previous owner told me”, or “the family of the deceased stated this”, or “I do not know anything about the trumpet”, or “you sound like you are real picky and do not think you would like this trumpet, but I can sell you trumpet X.”...etc.

I can usually tell a lot about the seller by there response to my questions. Some auction entries are so phony, I don’t even bother asking questions. There is a repeat offender that offers a “1940s” Martin Committee and some other instruments about every 2 weeks with a starting bid of $2 or $2.50 and states can be purchased “Buy it Now” via and external website. This shows up under a different seller each time. Somehow they are hacking the accounts. I report it as fraudulent to eBay repeated and they remove it shortly.

It definitely BUYER BEWARE!
Ron
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep looking for this scam, where the "seller" has a jpg of contact information asking the buyer to contact them through an email, and buy it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCHILKE-S32HD-SILVER-PLATED-Bb-TRUMPET-wCASE-MOUTHPIECE/265015777634?hash=item3db42bd962:g:1GAAAOSw8l1gAjig

I reported it, and looked at the "Sellers other items". They had over 1700 premium items listed under a stolen legit seller's ID. All the items were listed at once. They have it down to a science. Ebay takes their sweet time to get this crap off. I do get tired of the seller's who know nothing about their items, but feel they can make evaluations of a horn's condition by getting some non-descript noise and wiggling the "pumps", but the example above is organized crime, in my opinion. Same as all the people wanting to sell me car warrantees. Glad no one offers trumpet warrantees!
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ghelbig
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: EBay listings getting shady (-er) ? Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I mean, EBay has always been home to some shady descriptions, but it has just become so much more common. . .
Or is it just me?

It's not just you, and it's not just trumpets. eBay is a big part of the problem.

I bought a monitor that was advertised as "New, open box, free 3-year warranty".

It took me less than 30 seconds to determine that it was defective. While packing it up to return I found paperwork from a previous buyer returning it as defective.

The seller denied the return at first - claiming that it was used. eBay closed the case when the seller said I would get a refund. I haven't gotten the refund, and I can't re-open the case because he told eBay that I would get a refund. Just said he would, didn't actually do it. Sheesh.

Gary.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: EBay listings getting shady (-er) ? Reply with quote

ghelbig wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I mean, EBay has always been home to some shady descriptions, but it has just become so much more common. . .
Or is it just me?

It's not just you, and it's not just trumpets. eBay is a big part of the problem.

I bought a monitor that was advertised as "New, open box, free 3-year warranty".

It took me less than 30 seconds to determine that it was defective. While packing it up to return I found paperwork from a previous buyer returning it as defective.

The seller denied the return at first - claiming that it was used. eBay closed the case when the seller said I would get a refund. I haven't gotten the refund, and I can't re-open the case because he told eBay that I would get a refund. Just said he would, didn't actually do it. Sheesh.

Gary.

Can you dispute with PayPal or credit card?
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ghelbig
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: EBay listings getting shady (-er) ? Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Can you dispute with PayPal or credit card?

I got my money back. The seller added "as a courtesy" - I'm guessing he wants me to respond in kind by not reporting that he's taking retail store defective returns and re-selling them as "new open box".

Here's another eBay that I don't know what to do about:
I bought some sheet music about a month ago. I contacted the seller about a week after the scheduled delivery date - and two weeks after an order made a week later had arrived.

On the contact form I selected 1) It has not arrived, and 2) I still want the item.

The seller responded with just keep waiting - so I kept waiting.

An eBay staff person noticed that it was overdue and sent without tracking - so cancelled and refunded the transaction.

Now the seller is accusing me of trying to rip him off, and is being belligerent about it.

I makes me uncomfortable when someone does that - when it's most likely that the post office couldn't read the shipping label, and it really is lost.

Gary.
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ayryq
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might still show up. My wife got something in the mail (USPS) yesterday which, according to the label, was shipped on December 3. The seller was completely non-responsive and so the store (Etsy in this case) refunded her money. If the seller had written even once to say, "I shipped it, sorry it's taking so long" then it would have been a different story.

The USPS has been a disaster lately; I really feel for them trying to wade through the huge volume while short-staffed due to covid.
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:10 am    Post subject: E Bay listings getting shadier? Reply with quote

I have felt for a few years that their approach isn't to control everything, but to absorb it and then control it. That is just MHO
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had an eBay item take almost a month to show up but it finally came late last week. Go USPS!

I had a new eBay scam pulled on me not long ago. I was selling a laptop, a common item. Two bidders put in high bids early and both retracted in the last couple seconds so the auction was won by what was the third-highest bidder for a price less than half it should have gone for. It took me awhile to figure out what happened, but the scam they were pulling was this: first, a legit account of a scammer bids a low-ball amount. Then two stolen or new accounts controlled by the scammer put in bids well over the item's value. Since there are two high bids the to-beat price on the item is so high that no other bids will come in. Then, retract those two bids in the last few seconds so the scammer's account "wins".

I obviously got in touch with eBay and cancelled the sale and re-listed, but they were in complete denial about how a scam was happening. I bet many sellers just figure they got unlucky in the auction and ship the item to the scammer.

Has eBay overall gotten scammier recently? I don't know, I've been on eBay for over 20 years and have had scams pulled on me almost since the beginning. But it does seem to be slowly and steadily going downhill. Buyer and seller both beware.
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Ronnman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottfsmith - thanks for the heads up as I have never heard of this specific scenario. Although, I have seen several items sold, only to reappear a week or two after the auction ends. Could be a deadbeat bidders or the scam you experienced. These scammers can definitely think outside the “honesty box”.
Ron
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gregplo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottfsmith wrote:
I had an eBay item take almost a month to show up but it finally came late last week. Go USPS!

I had a new eBay scam pulled on me not long ago. I was selling a laptop, a common item. Two bidders put in high bids early and both retracted in the last couple seconds so the auction was won by what was the third-highest bidder for a price less than half it should have gone for. It took me awhile to figure out what happened, but the scam they were pulling was this: first, a legit account of a scammer bids a low-ball amount. Then two stolen or new accounts controlled by the scammer put in bids well over the item's value. Since there are two high bids the to-beat price on the item is so high that no other bids will come in. Then, retract those two bids in the last few seconds so the scammer's account "wins".

I obviously got in touch with eBay and cancelled the sale and re-listed, but they were in complete denial about how a scam was happening. I bet many sellers just figure they got unlucky in the auction and ship the item to the scammer.

Has eBay overall gotten scammier recently? I don't know, I've been on eBay for over 20 years and have had scams pulled on me almost since the beginning. But it does seem to be slowly and steadily going downhill. Buyer and seller both beware.


Precisely why I quit doing auctions on eBay. I use Buy It Now and allow Offers. Mostly, I've just moved over to REVERB.
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Ronnman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the Martin Committee that pops up every week or two on eBay. The two auctions already have been blocked by eBay. I was able to capture the images before the block.
Ron



[/img]
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottfsmith wrote:
I had an eBay item take almost a month to show up but it finally came late last week. Go USPS! :roll:

I had a new eBay scam pulled on me not long ago. I was selling a laptop, a common item. Two bidders put in high bids early and both retracted in the last couple seconds so the auction was won by what was the third-highest bidder for a price less than half it should have gone for. It took me awhile to figure out what happened, but the scam they were pulling was this: first, a legit account of a scammer bids a low-ball amount. Then two stolen or new accounts controlled by the scammer put in bids well over the item's value. Since there are two high bids the to-beat price on the item is so high that no other bids will come in. Then, retract those two bids in the last few seconds so the scammer's account "wins".

I obviously got in touch with eBay and cancelled the sale and re-listed, but they were in complete denial about how a scam was happening. I bet many sellers just figure they got unlucky in the auction and ship the item to the scammer.

Has eBay overall gotten scammier recently? I don't know, I've been on eBay for over 20 years and have had scams pulled on me almost since the beginning. But it does seem to be slowly and steadily going downhill. Buyer and seller both beware.

^this.
I haven't been on Ebay until recently but I have suspected this kind of manipulation of the bidding system. I placed in bid for a Yamaha flugelhorn and after a while the price jumps hundreds of dollars, then there was a bidding war between two potential buys and then it jumped another few hundred dollars. It "sold" for $1,650. A few days later same horn, same serial #, same seller, same pictures was re-listed with a starting bid of $1,650. hmmm...🤔

I was trying to find some meaningful information as to who the bidders are, like how active they are, how long they've been on eBay, how many bids they win, the types of items they tend to bid on, and feedback. eBay claims they want to keep their platform a "safe place" so they don't display member-specific info.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, maybe its just that junk offerings are becoming more common after years of people snatching up the good stuff.

I cannot fault this seller. The listing is completely honest and pretty thorough. If you dont know this is only suitable for making a lamp after viewing it, that's on you the buyer. (wow, what a wreck!)
[/url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/TRUMPET-SUPER-DELUXE-GETZEN-ELKHORN-WIS-TONE-BALANCED-100-READY-TO-PLAY-/363250481645?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
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ghelbig
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject: Hanlon’s Razor Reply with quote

There's another scam to be aware of: The seller creates a shipping label but does not ship it.

Happened to me recently. When I put a trace on it USPS confirmed that the package never was delivered to the originating post office.

When eBay saw that the trace was completed they marked it as "shipped" which in part exonerates the seller.

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

G.
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plankowner110
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eBay now is ending PayPal service and instead eBay wants your bank account number to process transactions. I would trust my bank account to my Nigerian girlfriend before I would trust eBay.
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might be a scam of sorts. I'm pretty sure this is a similar ad that posted late last year.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Monette-trumpet-Kanstul-Flugelhorn-double-hard-case/124561479169?hash=item1d00715601:g:qnwAAOSw2QlgHfA~

There's a number of ads where they list different Scherzer rotary piccs which look somewhat legit since they're not stock photos that can be copied from google images, but the give away is that where they ship from and where their profile lists them are different. They have plenty of feedback none of which is negative, but none of the feedback lists any instruments sold.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here we go again - fourth slide says email to buy, all bids will be cancelled.

I hope enough people report these to make the scam not work.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-mid-19th-century-Keyed-Bugle-9-keys-in-Eb-attributed-to-Graves-Co/124561484018?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
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ghelbig
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Hanlon’s Razor Reply with quote

plankowner110 wrote:
eBay now is ending PayPal service and instead eBay wants your bank account number to process transactions. I would trust my bank account to my Nigerian girlfriend before I would trust eBay.

The work-around for that is relatively straight forward: Create a banking relationship with PayPal, and use that for your account number.

With any service, there is:
A) Got that one right.
B) Room for improvement.

eBay has been moving things from column-A to column-B for a while now. Call them with a defect report and they treat it as a help request. Sigh.

I too am focusing on other sites - like Reverb. About the only thing I buy on eBay is out-of-print music books from estate sales...

G.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Good condition", "Works nice", "Works great!"

Come on! The receiver half of the leadpipe is missing

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393383761352?campaign-id=90001&run-date=20210705080500&templateId=32cab51d-9e3c-4742-a941-1a07b221e3f9&templateVersion=182&co=14502&placement-type=mfe.piyi1v2P&user-id=44269687977&instance=1625497500&site-id=0&trackingCode=TE79001_T_AGM_CT2&placement-type-name=mfe.piyi1v2P&mfe-Id=101311&mkevt=1&mkpid=2&emsid=0&mkcid=8&bu=44269687977&osub=d816cede39db64ff47cd2b0026cec951%257ETE79001_T_AGM_CT2&segname=TE79001_T_AGM_CT2&crd=20210705080500&ch=osgood&sojTags=osub%3Dosub%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Cch%3Dch%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid [/url]
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1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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