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Ronnman
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Joined: 09 Aug 2019
Posts: 409
Location: SE Louisiana
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 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:33 am Post subject: Re: How to interpret mouthpiece charts |
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Jenny - I find these type charts only good for a very basic comparison.
I prefer to use a graphic mouthpiece comparator like this one: https://trumpetbully.de/mcomp/index.html.
First select the pull down menus on one side and select a known mouthpiece. Then select the second mouthpiece to compare from the other menu. You can then move one graphic over the first mouthpiece graphic selected to view the difference.
Some pieces are abbreviated.
B# = Bach
BMV#= Bach Mount Vernon
BNY# = Back New York
You get the idea.
Ron
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Jenny Lee
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Joined: 06 Jun 2021
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:18 am Post subject: |
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JetJaguar wrote:
| Quote: | | -Another issue is, how do you measure inner diameter, when all rims are somewhat curved? Different makers and tinkerers do measure it differently. |
Hey thanks for replying. Yes, I was aware that different manufacturers following different naming/measuring order. This certainly does make it more confusing!
I understand this and other comparison charts like it are meant to be a *rough* guide at best, and that actual measurements may vary. But I'm tempted to recreate a comparison chart that's better organized and a little easier to follow.
Do you think a layout like this where you can sort mouthpieces by size and make would be an improvement?
https://imgur.com/a/Exod9aA
Can you see any other ways to improve the table I linked to earlier? |
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Jon Kaplan
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Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 300
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:51 am Post subject: |
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I agree that comparing mouthpiece dimensions can be very useful, and I used to be a big fan of comparison charts. Eventually I discovered the Kanstul comparator which was groundbreaking for the time and could give you a lot of information that a comparison chart has no way to organize....
BUT then I was introduced to VennCAD, an extremely powerful (and FREE) piece of mouthpiece software. There is an ever growing library of mouthpieces to compare and you can even learn to design your own or customize existing designs. This software makes comparison charts basically obsolete in my opinion and allows you get get very down and dirty with the nerdy details.
To me, this is a far better way to comparing mouthpieces than any chart. 🤓
https://www.vennture.mp/venncad/learn-venncad/
https://www.vennture.mp/venncad/download-venncad/
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3303
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Jenny Lee wrote: | ...
Do you think a layout like this where you can sort mouthpieces by size and make would be an improvement?
https://imgur.com/a/Exod9aA ... |
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That chart might be easier for some people to 'use', but it really is not 'better' because it lacks information about the shape of the rim, cup depth and shape, throat size, backbore, etc.
Even mouthpieces that 'feel the same' for one person might feel different for another person - due to lip size, teeth structure, etc.
When choosing a mouthpiece, the various charts and comparisons can be helpful in finding ones that 'might work'. But most people who are looking for a new mouthpiece want one that is 'just what I want', and not one that is 'good enough'.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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TrpPro
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Location: Riverview, FL
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Jenny Lee
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Joined: 06 Jun 2021
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Re: JayKosta
| Quote: | That chart might be easier for some people to 'use', but it really is not 'better' because it lacks information about the shape of the rim, cup depth and shape, throat size, backbore, etc.
Even mouthpieces that 'feel the same' for one person might feel different for another person - due to lip size, teeth structure, etc.
When choosing a mouthpiece, the various charts and comparisons can be helpful in finding ones that 'might work'. But most people who are looking for a new mouthpiece want one that is 'just what I want', and not one that is 'good enough'. |
Why not both a comparison chart for people who just want to see a rough guide of mouthpieces by size and then the comparison tool like this one below for seeing how two mouthpiece line up in terms of shape?
http://kanstul.com/MPcompare/MouthpieceComparator.html
The comparison chart could also have columns added for cup depth, cup diameter and rim shape, which some manufacturers publish (e.g. Bach here: https://www.bachbrass.com/application/files/4614/8521/7763/AV2BA901_Original_1889_web.pdf)
Would including these specs for mouthpieces add value to the comparison chart? |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Firstly, I'm not convinced of the accuracy or usefulness of the Kanstul comparator. If you compare the Bach B7 to the B3, they appear (to me) to be almost identical - I haven't done my own 'live comparison', but my guess is that they are noticeably different. Comparing other mouthpieces does show differences, but I don't how much they can be trusted.
Secondly, giving additional details about the rim, cup, throat, backbore, etc. might just give the illusion of usefulness, and not really describe the actual 'playing characteristics' of the mouthpiece for a particular person.
Yes, 'rough guide' charts and comparators CAN be useful in selecting 'candidates to try', but I think the final selection can only be made by personal testing of the specific mouthpieces.
For someone selling mouthpieces at a 'walk-in store' the best situation would be to have a wide selection available for testing and purchase, or for the store to be able to order a selection with the hope that the buyer would choose one.
For mail-order, having a good 'return policy' for mouthpieces would be helpful.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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omelet
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Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 245
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Firstly, I'm not convinced of the accuracy or usefulness of the Kanstul comparator. If you compare the Bach B7 to the B3, they appear (to me) to be almost identical - I haven't done my own 'live comparison', but my guess is that they are noticeably different. Comparing other mouthpieces does show differences, but I don't how much they can be trusted. |
I am not sure it is about whether those scans were done accurately, or that you know what you are looking at. I just looked at it and don't know how you can think they are identical.
When you try enough mouthpieces and also reference scans like that, you will understand how much of a difference the sharper ID and rapid drop off towards the OD of the B7 versus the B3 makes in how it feels on your face.
edit: also props to the trumpet bully site for duping the comparator, link was broken above: https://trumpetbully.de/mcomp/index.html |
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kramergfy
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Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 992
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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The Kanstul comparator was the only really useful tool. But, of course there were plenty of discrepancies there as well. I was able to at least use it as a general guide though; for instance, I would have never known that the Reeves S cups have a significant undercut, or low alpha angle. Obviously, every manufacturer uses different ways of measuring the inner diameter, and at the end of the day, what matters is how it feels. I have never found charts to be useful at all. Best to contact specialist and present your needs and current set up.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3303
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| omelet wrote: | | ... When you try enough mouthpieces and also reference scans like that, you will understand how much of a difference the sharper ID and rapid drop off towards the OD of the B7 versus the B3 makes in how it feels on your face. ... |
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You are probably correct - I haven't tried many mouthpieces, so do not have that 'knowledge base' to be able to recognize or predict from a scan how those slight differences can affect the feel.
The real 'value' of a scan or comparison chart is the ability to predict or describe how a mouthpiece will 'feel' and 'work' in relation to a player's experience with their current mpc.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Jenny Lee
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Joined: 06 Jun 2021
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting points. Thanks again you all for your input.
It's clear that both the comparison charts, and to a lesser extent, the comparator that uses scans, have their limitations. And any mention of either should come with the heavy caveat that every player experiences mouthpieces differently, and comparisons like these are only a rough guide.
Their usefulness is limited to exploring which mouthpieces one should experiment with. Only by getting professionally fitted for a custom mouthpiece, or by trying a mouthpiece for a couple weeks or more, can a trumpet player get a real sense of whether it is the right mouthpiece for them. |
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