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Let's talk valved F trumpet ?



 
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:49 am    Post subject: Let's talk valved F trumpet ? Reply with quote

My latest detour is into the obscure world of the orchestral F trumpet. I have been collecting old Courtois trumpets and happened on an old Courtois F trumpet. It had been extensively modified but Robb Stewart worked his magic and restored it to its original form.

It has been a very interesting journey, the F trumpet is an intermediate point between the old valveless trumpets and the modern Bb/C trumpets. Lots of playing in the very high partials. Many of the orchestral parts in mid-19c were written for it but it seems to have died out almost completely. The tone is unique, when you get it going it doesn't sound like a modern orchestral trumpet at all.

I'm curious if there are any other F trumpet players out there. I would be interested in any pieces and methods etc. Currently I am working through Deveraux and Kosleck/Morrow methods which are excellent. Also working on the Saint-Saens septet.

I am using a period F trumpet mouthpiece which is similar to a baroque trumpet mouthpiece. It took some getting used to but seems to be required if you want to get all the notes out reliably and in-tune. It also seems to be part of the tonal equation, the extra resistance of the sharp angle at the throat adds a "shimmer" to the sound when you get it going.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know nothing of the F trumpet except that there are two kinds: the nearly-a-piccolo trumpet you are referring to, and the low F nearly-a-bass trumpets used in a handful of 19th century operas and not much else. I don't think I've ever seen either in the flesh, but like my handle implies, I'm just an amateur tooting and blurping away as best I can.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have clarified that I am referring to the low one. It was used in many orchestral settings in the 19th century, operas and more. In general any trumpet part in the 19c had to be intended for either natural trumpet, cornet, or valved F trumpet, there were no Bb or C trumpets until nearly the 20c.

Even though it is "low" in terms of how low it can play, it in fact was commonly used in a range more like the modern Bb. This is really mainly history at work, it replaced the natural trumpet with no valves where you had to play very high in the partials series to get a full scale.
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a modern low F trumpet for some specialized things. I have the Bach F contralto horn. It has a lovely sound. It can also sound great as a solo instrument. Like any horn, it takes some getting used to and practice to keep it in shape.
On very rare occasions, I use a high F trumpet - Schilke G1L with E/F/G congifuration.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottfsmith wrote:
I should have clarified that I am referring to the low one. It was used in many orchestral settings in the 19th century, operas and more. In general any trumpet part in the 19c had to be intended for either natural trumpet, cornet, or valved F trumpet, there were no Bb or C trumpets until nearly the 20c.

Even though it is "low" in terms of how low it can play, it in fact was commonly used in a range more like the modern Bb. This is really mainly history at work, it replaced the natural trumpet with no valves where you had to play very high in the partials series to get a full scale.


Whoops! I read "It has been a very interesting journey, the F trumpet is an intermediate point between the old valveless trumpets and the modern Bb/C trumpets" in your earlier posts and for some reason my mind read it as the intermediate point between trumpets and piccolo trumpets. So I know even less about the F trumpet than I thought I did!
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, how far TH has fallen. There used to be many regulars who could discuss topics like the F contralto trumpet and associated literature at a scholarly level. Sadly nearly all of them have been run off long ago by the Kirks, Kurts, Kalijahs, and their endless near-clones…
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some examples of old, orchestral F trumpets on Robb Stewart’s website:

https://www.robbstewart.com/orchestral-trumpets

I know little about them. I would love to play around with one, like you are, but originals are very hard to find and then expensive to restore to working order. Egger makes a reproduction; kind of expensive.

https://www.baroquetrumpet.com/pages/keyed-and-classical-trumpet

I met and spoke with a man whose name I cannot remember who was a natural trumpet builder. He had an F trumpet with the Vienna “pumpen” valves that he had built and planned to use on a Mendelssohn piece with his orchestra . It was a reproduction of an instrument likely in use in Mendelssohn’s time. That was the first time I had seen Vienna valves and didn’t quite know what I was looking at. Would love to play around with an instrument like that now that I know a little more.
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picctpt33
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for linking Robb Stewart’s website. I hadnt seen that before and there’s a ton of good info in there
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stumac
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coincidentey I received today the music for our next orchestral concert, included is Beethoven Egmont Overture, Trumpets in F, good chance to try my Amati F alto trumpet that I converted from Eb.

Regsrds, Stuart.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patdublc wrote:
I use a modern low F trumpet for some specialized things. I have the Bach F contralto horn. It has a lovely sound. It can also sound great as a solo instrument. Like any horn, it takes some getting used to and practice to keep it in shape.


That's interesting, I didn't realize that there were modern versions of F trumpets. Or at least somewhat modern, not sure these Bachs are still being made today. Are they designed to use the lower notes? One thing interesting to me about the 1800s F trumpet is the notes below what is middle C on the Bb/C trumpet (i.e. below the 4th position in the harmonic series) are not even listed in the fingering charts. They don't play very well, either. A similar range instrument is the F (alto) trombone and it uses the notes below the 4th partial.

Robb also put a page up about the restoration he did for me:

https://www.robbstewart.com/courtois-g-trumpet

I agree there is a problem of no good cheaper source for these trumpets. In looking a few years ago all I found was an Egger Courtois copy but it costs six grand. Ouch!
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend had one and it was a big trumpet to hold and play.

Its been about fifteen years since then. It was amusing because he was a mid to late twenty something sax player in the local theatre and just liked collecting instruments. He thought it was unique so he picked it up.
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject: ??? Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
Man, how far TH has fallen. There used to be many regulars who could discuss topics like the F contralto trumpet and associated literature at a scholarly level. Sadly nearly all of them have been run off long ago by the Kirks, Kurts, Kalijahs, and their endless near-clones…


There are plenty of people participating on this thread who seem to know about low-F trumpets.

I don't remember seeing any of the posters you mention interfere with threads like this one. (yes, I lurked long enough to remember Captain Kirk.)
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:55 am    Post subject: What I learned over the years about "alto" trumpet Reply with quote

Over the years, I have been told that there two main variations on valved low-F trumpets. The first are the smaller bore instruments designed to play in the upper register. (Partials? I apologize in advance for my incorrect terminology.) Those are the instruments intended by many 19th composers.

The second is the class of larger bore instruments designed to play in the lower register, in order to add more depth to a modern trumpet section.

When I read transposition tips concerning Trumpet in F in orchestral music, I receive the impression that one should know which category the composer intended, as that will determine how high or low the transposition will be in order to play in the intended register.

There are plenty of modern manufacturers still manufacturing instruments of both types, and plenty of recently discontinued instruments available for sale on places like eBay and Reverb, both piston valve and rotary valve. Getzen, Bach, Dotzauer, Melton, Miraphone, Thein.

The soprano bugles in G used in the old style bugle corps were actually alto trumpets in G.

There used to be a very knowledgeable poster who went by the name gsmonks on other trumpet boards who knew a lot about old style valve trumpets in F. Also online, Robb Stewart is a great resource. Edward Tarr, may he rest in peace, published a lot scholarly articles on the romantic trumpet.

All three of the people I mention make the distinction between true trumpets, true cornets, and modern hybrids.

This is a great thread and I hope more people come forward with more information on the topic.
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I acquired a low F trumpet several years ago, a Courtois copy marked only with the importer’s name. It was advertised with two additional crooks, Eb and D, but the seller was able to locate only one of the two. To this date, I’ve never taken a tuner to the second crook to identify it, as I have no need for either alternative. It’s a big horn, a lot of fun to play although I don’t have much material for it. It came without mouthpiece, but a Bach 9AT (intended for Eb alto trumpet) fits and works well. I’ve reached another long pause in playing, and have been concentrating more on selling off most of my collection, so it’ll probably have to go at some point. I may well never get around to playing the “William Tell” overture on it, but that’s what inspired me to buy it in the first place. I’d advise anyone who has an interest in such trumpets to get one when you can - other than size and weight, it’s a pretty easy transition from Bb, particularly if you’ve spent any time on baritone, bass trumpet, or alto/tenor horn.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: What I learned over the years about "alto" tru Reply with quote

Didymus wrote:
Over the years, I have been told that there two main variations on valved low-F trumpets. The first are the smaller bore instruments designed to play in the upper register. (Partials? I apologize in advance for my incorrect terminology.) Those are the instruments intended by many 19th composers.

The second is the class of larger bore instruments designed to play in the lower register, in order to add more depth to a modern trumpet section.


Interesting, that is exactly what I was wondering about with the modern F valved trumpets, which seem to all be in this second category (?). The traditional F trumpet coming from the renaissance/baroque trumpet is analogous to something like a countertenor in singing (countertenors are tenors singing in the highest part of their range only, usually in falsetto). There ends up being a different character to the sound due to playing in the higher partials -- the Devereau fingering chart for example goes up to a "G" which is the 12th partial and is a concert C6, the C above the staff on a C trumpet. The Saint-Saens goes up to the 16th partial.
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: What I learned over the years about "alto" tru Reply with quote

scottfsmith wrote:
Didymus wrote:
Over the years, I have been told that there two main variations on valved low-F trumpets. The first are the smaller bore instruments designed to play in the upper register. (Partials? I apologize in advance for my incorrect terminology.) Those are the instruments intended by many 19th composers.

The second is the class of larger bore instruments designed to play in the lower register, in order to add more depth to a modern trumpet section.


Interesting, that is exactly what I was wondering about with the modern F valved trumpets, which seem to all be in this second category (?). The traditional F trumpet coming from the renaissance/baroque trumpet is analogous to something like a countertenor in singing (countertenors are tenors singing in the highest part of their range only, usually in falsetto). There ends up being a different character to the sound due to playing in the higher partials -- the Devereau fingering chart for example goes up to a "G" which is the 24th partial and is a concert C6, the C above the staff on a C trumpet.


I'm no music historian. Most of what I'm going to write is just a repeat of things I've read from folks like Robb Stewart and Edward Tarr, or online forum participants like gsmonks.

As a fan of classical music, it became apparent to me that the role of the trumpet changed between the renaissance/baroque period when composers wrote clarino parts for natural trumpet, and the classical/early romantic periods when natural trumpets were used in full orchestras for simple fanfare-rhythm patterns.

The baroque natural trumpets makers sell to recreate the clarino parts mostly seem to be in D. The classical/romantic natural trumpets were low-F with crooks to change to many different keys. Then there was the era of experimentation, in which some places tried trumpets and trumpeters implementing different technlogies in order to allow them rapidly change the key of the instrument or play somewhat chromatically. Flatt trumpets, slide trumpets, hand-stopping, toneholes, keys (like ophicleides) all were tried before valves were accepted by players.

I suspect trumpeters were conservative in that regard because each solution came with a compromise of the stereotypical trumpet sound. For example, the keyed trumpet in particular just doesn't have the sound of a natural trumpet. The 19th century piston cornet was considered inadequate to recreate that sound.

I thought the chromatic parts for the trumpet in the latter part of the 19th century was influenced more by the way the piston cornet was able play than how the clarinos of the previous century or musical era. Cornets and trumpets were definitely different instruments back then, and cornets had a much different sound. At that time, trumpets were truly a 2/3 cylindrical instrument and cornets were a 2/3 conical instrument.

The instruments we are play in the modern era would be considered trumpet/cornet hybrids. Cornets in the shape of a trumpet played with a mouthpiece more similar to a natural trumpet. 50-50 cylindrical-conical in bore geometry. There still remained a compromise between *that* sound and the ability to play all over the 12 note western scale, but between the smaller instrument's ability to make the high register more secure and play chromatically, the choice became clear for trumpeters who wanted to play the best gigs.

The modern bigger instruments in low G, F, Eb, and D still have a more commanding sound because they have more tubing. I don't understand enough about acoustics to tell you why. All I know that it's there and it's obvious. Some makers sell low-Eb valved "cavalry trumpets" that have that big sound, and then there are the low-G "soprano bugles" that are optimized to project that big sound across football stadiums. I don't think those instruments were marketed to orchestral musicians for use in an orchestra.

In modern performances of the Saint-Saens septet, do trumpeters use a low-Eb instrument or a smaller instrument in Bb, C or even high Eb? All the versions I have heard, the performer sounds like they are using a smaller modern instrument.

There is an interesting story behind the septet. When Saint-Saens received the request or commission for it, he supposedly said (paraphrase:) Ask me to write that part for guitar, and I can find 100 guitarists in Spain who will be able to play it. Ask me to write that part for trumpet, you give me a near-impossible task. Where can I find a trumpet player who will be able to play soft enough with the ensemble, and who has an instrument to play all those notes soft enough?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: What I learned over the years about "alto" tru Reply with quote

Didymus wrote:
I thought the chromatic parts for the trumpet in the latter part of the 19th century was influenced more by the way the piston cornet was able play than how the clarinos of the previous century or musical era. Cornets and trumpets were definitely different instruments back then, and cornets had a much different sound. At that time, trumpets were truly a 2/3 cylindrical instrument and cornets were a 2/3 conical instrument.


I should dig up my Tarr etc and re-read, but my memory is that there were very few orchestral parts written for the cornet. Berlioz is one of the few composers who notated "cornet" in the parts. Of course in practice many of the old trumpet parts were in fact played on cornet in some orchestras in the latter 19c, even if notated as for trumpet in the score: it was a lot easier to play the parts on a cornet.

Germany really led the change to higher-sounding-length trumpets in orchestras with their rotary valve Bb and C trumpets. In Germany from maybe 1870? on they were commonly using such instruments.

Didymus wrote:
The instruments we are play in the modern era would be considered trumpet/cornet hybrids.


Interestingly, in the 1872 Besson patent for the modern trumpet design they say exactly that, they call it a "trumpet cornet". They originally intended it to work with either a cornet mouthpiece or a trumpet mouthpiece so the player could be a bit more one way or the other on the same instrument.
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: What I learned over the years about "alto" tru Reply with quote

scottfsmith wrote:
Didymus wrote:
I thought the chromatic parts for the trumpet in the latter part of the 19th century was influenced more by the way the piston cornet was able play than how the clarinos of the previous century or musical era. Cornets and trumpets were definitely different instruments back then, and cornets had a much different sound. At that time, trumpets were truly a 2/3 cylindrical instrument and cornets were a 2/3 conical instrument.


I should dig up my Tarr etc and re-read, but my memory is that there were very few orchestral parts written for the cornet. Berlioz is one of the few composers who notated "cornet" in the parts. Of course in practice many of the old trumpet parts were in fact played on cornet in some orchestras in the latter 19c, even if notated as for trumpet in the score: it was a lot easier to play the parts on a cornet.


I was honestly under the impression that in middle and late 19th century orchestrations could be found 2+2 formations in the brass section: 2 trumpets and 2 cornets. Berlioz had some strong opinions about cornets; he supposedly did not like cornets, especially cornets trying to sound like trumpets. But he did frequently write cornet parts, and then go back and re-edit cornet parts as manufacturers made two and three piston cornets more available. I think I either read that in one of Edward Tarr's works or else in the Cornet Compendium. (or maybe the Cornet Compendium quoting Tarr, LOL.)

Cornets were not popular with German composers like Brahms but were increasingly called for in French, Russian, and English works. I think they also turned up in light dance music from Bohemia & Austria, the banda parts of Italian opera, military-marching bands on both sides of the Atlantic.

I can't help to think that if the cornet didn't merge with the trumpet, then it would have remained an orchestral outlier in all traditions, like the saxophone. Associated too strongly by audiences with popular & military band-based music.

As a listener I wouldn't mind seeing low-F trumpets make a comeback in mainstream performance practice. Easy for me to say, because I don't have to and probably will never invest $4grand in a professional grade low-F trumpet. There are orchestras asking their trumpet sections use natural romantic trumpets for certain late-classical/early-romantic repertoire, including the local professional chamber orchestra where I live. It's interesting to see, and it's interesting to hear. They do sound different from modern valved Bb/C trumpet. A deeper and more grandiose without overwhelming.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didymus your input is greatly appreciated. There was a time when some of the actual authors and historians being referenced would contribute on this site. That was a good time, predictably brought down by folks who long predated Kirk. Anyway, very glad to see some more serious contribution happening.
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