• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Who Else Gets Bummed Out About Fundamentals? And...


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
gwood66
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 162
Location: South of Chicago

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
Basically, when you practice anything, make it musical.
Play tunes as well as exercises.


This is what I do to keep it from getting stale.

Some days I only do 20 minutes of routine/exercises and then play tunes/etudes. I believe the most important thing is to get the horn on my face every day.

Interestingly, I was just listening to the Trumpet Guru's Podcast with Alan Vizzutti. He felt the average player could make a lot of progress in as little as an hour of focused practice a day. Of course it doesn't hurt to have Mr. Vizzutti's level of "focus".
_________________
Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)

GR 66M/66MS/66SZ
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mcstock
Veteran Member


Joined: 25 Nov 2001
Posts: 454
Location: Norman, OK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
No problem. I just keep reminding myself I don't want to be just another hack.


This. 100% this keeps me working at it.

Matt
_________________
" . . . it is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read."
Thomas Jefferson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hibidogrulez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2020
Posts: 871
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boredom isn’t really an issue with fundamentals for me. I do find them hard to play though. For some reason, I seem to develop a lot of tension while playing them and I find it hard to keep my embouchure right. It’s particularly when playing technical fundamentals. If its written more like actual music (say, a technical etude) I struggle less with it, so I tend to focus on those.

My current alternative is to play (passages from) songs that have particular technical challenges (say, a march for triple tonguing, a ballad for octave jumps, chorals for longtones, etc.).
_________________
Enthusiastic amateur with good intentions. My personal experiences may not match yours. Value my posts as you see fit.

Plays an Olds Recording with AR Resonance mouthpiece(s)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HaveTrumpetWillTravel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 725
Location: East Asia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been learning different books, which helps things stay fresh, including Clarke, Concone, some Arbans, some Vizzutti, etc.

I do find that I have certain fundamental areas I avoid (timing) and I also feel like my teachers have often had hobby horses they get on (one loved mouthpiece work, another loves Arbans routines). I would get frustrated spending an hour doing mouthpiece work tone-matching piano keys or working on double tonguing with a metronome, even though both are probably good things to do.

I think the fundamentals people are correct, but there are also people who say you can do most things through playing music. I find for me the balance of learning new things, practicing old, and playing music helps me find balance. If you are doing an hour a day of fundamentals and hate it, you can likely get similar improvement from learning new scales, practicing fresher music, etc. Having a piece to work towards is a good idea also. Perhaps take a break from your current routine, playing what is most fun for you, and see if your technique suffers at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HackAmateur
Regular Member


Joined: 10 Jul 2021
Posts: 80
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
Boredom isn’t really an issue with fundamentals for me. I do find them hard to play though. For some reason, I seem to develop a lot of tension while playing them and I find it hard to keep my embouchure right. It’s particularly when playing technical fundamentals. If its written more like actual music (say, a technical etude) I struggle less with it, so I tend to focus on those.

My current alternative is to play (passages from) songs that have particular technical challenges (say, a march for triple tonguing, a ballad for octave jumps, chorals for longtones, etc.).


Yeah I swear they're so hard, even though on paper they're "easy". I guess if you take them seriously, that makes fundamentals very difficult due to the required focus.

My long tones and flow studies focus is insane, so that makes them "hard" due to how seriously I take them and how much focus I put into them.

And it's not just long tones/flow studies, but everything else, too. I try to them perfectly with the most gorgeous tone possible, at all times. And when you're doing 2 and a half hours of that, it's taxing to your concentration unless you're very unusually hyped up that day. lol

It's like my concentration is exhausted before I can get through everything. Mind starts wandering off due to the fact I try to focus on literally nothing but sound.
_________________
As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1110
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's like my concentration is exhausted before I can get through everything. Mind starts wandering off


Even if your chops feel fine there is still a point of diminishing returns during a long practice session, when the practice becomes less and less useful as you lose focus. Try to figure out when that point is for you and make sure that your practice sessions are shorter than that. Shorter practice sessions help us avoid wearing ourselves out physically AND mentally. Good luck!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
x9ret
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 517
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest you rotate your fundamentals. Don't do exactly the same ones each day. Then maybe vary them. Do some in a swing style, not just classical. Improvise some variations on the exercises. Cut some exercises down don't do them all through the 7 valve combinations maybe just 2 or 3. Otherwise yes, they get boring. If I can cover tonguing, slurring, range, swing/straight styles, intervals say in a 15-20 minute session then I'm happy with myself. Everything touched upon and ready to go onto the music. As someone said already, do the fundamentals as musically as possible.
_________________
http://trumpetplayalong.com


Last edited by x9ret on Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:12 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
x9ret
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 517
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:

And it's not just long tones/flow studies, but everything else, too. I try to them perfectly with the most gorgeous tone possible, at all times. And when you're doing 2 and a half hours of that, it's taxing to your concentration unless you're very unusually hyped up that day. lol


Yes, fundamentals & everything else much easier when you're on a "good day" where everything just feels right and easy. It's those other days that need more concentration... and regular breaks to get things back to shape.
_________________
http://trumpetplayalong.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
LowNoteSavant
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Jul 2021
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am bummed out that I can't find a teacher. So far the only ones are an hour drive away.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jerry Freedman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 2466
Location: Burlington, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you just habitually do the fundamentals without paying attention they will be boring and probably ineffectual. If you give them the same amount of concentration you would give, say, a new piece then you might actually get something out of them even if you have been doing them for years
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HackAmateur
Regular Member


Joined: 10 Jul 2021
Posts: 80
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry Freedman wrote:
if you just habitually do the fundamentals without paying attention they will be boring and probably ineffectual. If you give them the same amount of concentration you would give, say, a new piece then you might actually get something out of them even if you have been doing them for years


Well see, that's the problem.

I'm focusing too MUCH on fundamentals when I'm doing them and so my concentration can't be maintained. I have an EXTREMELY high amount of concentration during fundamentals.

But that high level of concentration has a limit. Divided into sections, let's say total practice time is 2.5 hours. If I'm being realistic, only about 1.5 hours of maximum concentration fundamentals can be achieved. After 1.5 hours, my focus will start to go elsewhere to random stuff that has probably nothing to do with what I'm practicing.

So it's not that I'm not focusing on fundamentals. It's not that I'm treating them like crap... it's that I'm taking them SO SERIOUSLY that I can't focus on them for longer than two 45 minute practice sessions per day.

It's the opposite of what you're saying... I take fundamentals TOO seriously, not the opposite problem of "going through the motions". I've never gone through the motions with fundamentals. I've always been drop-dead serious with them.
_________________
As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HaveTrumpetWillTravel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 725
Location: East Asia

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP, do you feel like you're making progress with 2.5 hours/day of fundamentals? Is there a reason you're doing so much? Are you doing other musical playing besides this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
x9ret
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 517
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think fundamentals when you play some music you already know. Can I play this easier? Is my tongue and air doing enough work, is my chops taking too much of the workload?
_________________
http://trumpetplayalong.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1107
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
Jerry Freedman wrote:
if you just habitually do the fundamentals without paying attention they will be boring and probably ineffectual. If you give them the same amount of concentration you would give, say, a new piece then you might actually get something out of them even if you have been doing them for years


Well see, that's the problem.

I'm focusing too MUCH on fundamentals when I'm doing them and so my concentration can't be maintained. I have an EXTREMELY high amount of concentration during fundamentals.

But that high level of concentration has a limit. Divided into sections, let's say total practice time is 2.5 hours. If I'm being realistic, only about 1.5 hours of maximum concentration fundamentals can be achieved. After 1.5 hours, my focus will start to go elsewhere to random stuff that has probably nothing to do with what I'm practicing.

So it's not that I'm not focusing on fundamentals. It's not that I'm treating them like crap... it's that I'm taking them SO SERIOUSLY that I can't focus on them for longer than two 45 minute practice sessions per day.

It's the opposite of what you're saying... I take fundamentals TOO seriously, not the opposite problem of "going through the motions". I've never gone through the motions with fundamentals. I've always been drop-dead serious with them.


! Research shows that the human race is only able to concentrate say 45 minutes (hence the average class room period is 40-45 minutes).
Of course we can find singular specimen deviating from this. Trumpeters tend to belong to this ehh, somewhat special group (hence I suggested the existence of personality types with Asberigan traits; weirdly enough very often linked with Hysteric(Histrionic) traits).
So you will have to divide your practice sessions into chunks, say 30 minutes - pauses have a worth per se, as in all physical training.

I also suggested that having goals is essential - I do believe that having a dream, a goal is extremely important for all of us.
Monotony is a killer of desire/passion. So is obsession - easy does it.
Ask yourself: why am I doing this? To what purpose? What do you wish to arrive at??? Is it worth it? Realistic?

Playing in a band, with all the demands this might imply is a forceful motivator. Playing without a band..well this last year....I spent it practicing almost every day (and I think I am a fairly normal person, but a trumpeter/cornet player..) but at many times.....arghh!
But I made it through the night and the reward(s) are in a state of coming. But - I had them in mind prior to this pandemic from hell. Even planned to use this interlude of my playing life to re invent my playing. Goals...

I sincerely believe that your are not alone; The majority of players have at times felt boredom, contrary to what people write here. But we, the Heralders constitute a very special group....
Georg B is to be applauded - hopefully I´ll be like him in due time!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2508
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see issues with the OP’s approach.

1. Too long working without proper breaks.
2. Lack of focus to improve whatever is being practiced. Getting ‘bummed’ by this? You’re not doing it right and need to focus on how, not what.

Of r posts are not full of detail, just emotive responses, which suggested your focus while playing is not what it should be. Guidance for how you practice - not what - is needed.

Cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CTeneyck
Regular Member


Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 79
Location: Framingham, MA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as has been already noted - if there's no joy in playing, it's a burn-out proposition. Playing along is key to breaking it up - I've found smartmusic ($40/yr) very helpful with this. It has a large and varied catalog, and you can certainly find pieces that will drill fundamentals - the baroque stuff particularly for tonguing and all sorts of things for endurance. I'll likely start a smartmusic thread shortly to talk about pieces. Also, there is IMSLP which has tons of orchestra literature and membership is inexpensive (and may not even be required.) I've often used it to play along with recordings and there's lots of solo literature there as well. Recording duet parts that you can play with is another way to add some fun to the fundamentals (sorry about that!)

IMHO, having joy in one's own playing is the most important thing - making a joyful noise is really the point.

best,
Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MarkD
Regular Member


Joined: 24 Aug 2020
Posts: 20
Location: Phoenix, Az

PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m a comeback player myself who just started back in late 2020 but here are my thoughts.

1st- do you have a goal you are working toward? Why are you doing all this work? If so, then every exercise is a step closer to the goal.

2nd- work with a teacher if you’re not already. They can help move things around so you don’t get bored. They may also challenge you more than you challenge yourself.

3rd- check out this Charlie Porter YouTube vid on how to practice. It helped me a lot.

https://youtu.be/9nlmw3u6H6o

Hope this helps,
Mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5116
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a couple of weeks off the horn, I put in some time tonight because I have a gig coming up in a couple of weeks. Guess what I played?

Long tones
Lip slurs
Tonguing exercises
Scales
Arpeggios

I put it away after about 40 minutes too - the first day back after a break it's never a good idea to go much longer than that.

At this point I don't think too much about whether or not I enjoy the fundamentals - I simply work them because those are the building blocks to everything we play on the trumpet, regardless of whether it's the Haydn, Carnival of Venice, or Hot Cross Buns. Think about it - ALL music for the trumpet is comprised of just a few building blocks of technique that we put together in various was to make music. That's somewhat over-simplified, because there's definitely an X-factor to a person's musicianship, but the technical aspects are always the same.

In any case, our ability to execute those fundamentals determines what music we are capable of playing, and how well we are capable of playing it.

Learn to love the fundamentals.
_________________
Patrick Gleason - Shires Model B
Marcinkiewicz #2
Warburton 4SVW/KT

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hibidogrulez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2020
Posts: 871
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Learn to love the fundamentals.

Do you have any advice on how to perform them properly? How do you get the most out of fundamentals?
_________________
Enthusiastic amateur with good intentions. My personal experiences may not match yours. Value my posts as you see fit.

Plays an Olds Recording with AR Resonance mouthpiece(s)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GeorgeB
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Apr 2016
Posts: 748
Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
Do you have any advice on how to perform them properly? How do you get the most out of fundamentals?


I am not speaking for Patrick, but I can tell you that how you perform them and get the most out of them is the first thing you learn from a professional teacher, and once learned you never forget. I am guessing you are self taught.

George
_________________
GeorgeB
Manchester Brass Custom ( ACB ) RL-GB pro B flat trumpet
1942 Buescher 400 225 (ML Bore ) Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B flat trumpet
1959 Selmer Paris 24B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group