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Trumpetstud Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2021 Posts: 208
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:32 pm Post subject: Learning jazz |
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Just want to get opinions
I’m an average adult student learning jazz for the first time. I’m just curious how long it might take to become a solid jazz player. I know I’ll never be a pro (just not a lot of time left) I’m 56. Anyway what do you think I could expect it to take to learn the language and not be embarrassed to do any kind of performing. I also understand there are many variables just want your opinions. Thanks. |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 650
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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1-2 years of study with a serious professional should be adequate. If you're willing to do a little practicing, listening, and transcribing every day, you should progress quickly.
Selection of a teacher is a very important aspect for learning improvised music. A majority of the inflection and feel has to be learned by ear and by imitation, not so much "read the notes on the page and present a polished performance of this well-notated etude". There are a lot of self-proclaimed experts and jazz educators who are relatively disconnected from the music, so make sure you dig the way your teacher plays before you start taking advice from them. Ideally, your journey should be self-motivated but guided by someone who will know how best to help you reach your goals.
With the current situation of the world, many excellent musicians are teaching virtually, so it has never been easier to have access to fantastic instructors.
One other piece of advice: listen, listen, listen. Every teacher is going to tell you to check out the old stuff, but it's good to know what's happening today. Listen to more than just trumpet players, and listen to more than just straight-ahead jazz.
What are your favorite albums? |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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As a comeback player, I will just say "way harder than it looks." Someone here recently posted a list of skills for professional jazz musicians and it includes a lot of memorization, ear training, transposition, etc. To me, it's a field where "you don't know what you don't know." That said, I've really enjoyed it for music appreciation and working on it has brought up my skills in a variety of fields. |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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The more you actively listen to jazz, the quicker you’ll get to where you’d like to be. Play along with recordings, transcribe, buy a Real Book and learn the common standards. Get iRealPro and improvise over the changes. If you do a little every day, it won’t take long for you to be able to get to where you’re talking about being. It’s hard to put a definite time frame without hearing you play or knowing how you progress (since everyone goes at a different pace).
Cheers, and have fun! Don’t stress, just enjoy the process! I love jazz more than anything! |
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Trumpetstud Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2021 Posts: 208
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Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:26 am Post subject: |
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Not sure that I have favorite albums (maybe I’m not listening enough) but I love smooth jazz right now. I love Chris Botti. I’m listening to Tom Harrell, Wynton, Freddie Hubbard, Lee Morgan and many others. My teacher says I need to be consumed in the listening aspect of jazz. I think I am. from the time I get up to going to bed I’m listening listening listening. I want to be as good as I can. I like the whole process of learning jazz. My teacher doesn’t really care for smooth jazz but said every type of jazz builds off the other (something like that). he is more of a mainstream jazz guy. I found a playlist of smooth jazz trumpet players which is cool to me. I know it’s a life long journey but I see guys like Doc severinson still giving concerts at 90 something and I think there might be hope for me! Lol |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2412 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Learning jazz |
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Trumpetstud wrote: | I’m an average adult student learning jazz for the first time. I’m just curious how long it might take to become a solid jazz player. |
Good question. You're going to get a variety of answers, based on people's individual experiences. This is what I used to learn to play jazz.
If you're starting out, you need some direction. Get a jazz method to work from. I started out with Jamey Aebersold Volumes 1, 2, and 3. Don't just mindlessly play through the recordings. Instead, methodically work through the material, learning your basic jazz scales, jazz patterns, and chord progressions. Memorize as much of it as you can.
In addition, you need to learn the repertoire. Page 56 of Aebersold's Volume 1 covers the process for learning and memorizing songs. Follow this method, pick a song a week, and build your list of songs.
The following web site lists 100 top jazz songs to learn. In addition, at the bottom of the web page are 20 easy tunes to start with.
https://www.hopestreetmusicstudios.com/articles/100-must-know-jazz-tunes
Another good list of the top 50 jazz songs to learn.
https://www.learnjazzstandards.com/blog/50-jazz-standards-you-need-to-know/
Invest in a Real Book. The Hal Leonard Real Books are the standard. In addition, Bob Roetker offers a book with about 1000 songs that is free for the asking.
http://bobroetkerjazzguitar.yolasite.com/free-stuff.php
You ask "how long". That's a hard question to answer. To get truly proficient is more of a "10,000 hours" question. But if you set aside 30 minutes of your daily practice for this, it might take 6 months to work through Aebersold Volume 1 and learn/memorize those first 20 easy tunes.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:40 am Post subject: |
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To become fluent in jazz improvisation it is reasonable to expect it to take at least as long as it took you to become fluent in speaking your native language. This assumes you listen to jazz and practice as much as you listened and practiced to learn to speak your native language. The processes are very similar (imitate, assimilate, innovate). Of course this assumes that you've mastered the technical fundamentals of playing the horn. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Trumpetstud Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2021 Posts: 208
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Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:30 am Post subject: Learning Jazz |
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Thanks for the help |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:47 am Post subject: |
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In addition, if possible, try to join a bigband or jazz group. That’ll help you get some hands on experience and time to spend with seasoned jazz musicians that can share inspiration and wisdom. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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When I had more ambition than I do now, I got a book called "The Modern Jazz Trumpet Method, by Eric Bolvin. (These days I'm lucky if I have the ambition to pick up my horn at all...) It has chapters on scale patterns, arpeggios, intervals and range builders. There are six pages of advice on how to use the book at the front, including a program where you do an exercise from each of the four sections each week or two for 20 weeks. There is also advice on doing "cyclic practice" to learn licks in all keys and some advice on articulation, models and tempos. There are some videos that go with the book at www.BolvinMusic.com.
The scale patterns are not just scales in all the keys, they are scales running thru several chord changes, like "Major ii-V-I" in all the different keys.
Anyway, this is a nice text to help you learn the rudiments of jazz. He has an "Arban Manual" to help you use the Arban method systematically, too. Good stuff to keep you structured and on task. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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mcarroll78 New Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2021 Posts: 1 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: Jazz education-life journey |
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I personally believe everyone is an improviser and has their own style. It’s about finding your voice. I would suggest finding the trumpet players first that you enjoy listening to. Dig into their sound, their phrasing, their melodies. Transcribe bits and pieces of their solos. Also get inside the blues. All twelve keys and work on telling your story. Lastly, record yourself, sing your solos and transcribe what you’re hearing. Once you have a handle on this you’ll have a string foundation in style, harmony and melodies. _________________ Marques Carroll |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 984
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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There are some who learn the jazz language rather quickly. Learning the form, structure, behavior of different notes and scales in relation to the chord changes, etc.
If you want to learn it you can. Being able to feel comfortable playing over some changes may come quicker than you think. Some might say it is a lifelong love and mastery is always a goal post away. The sky is the limit and that’s the beautiful thing. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Transcribing jazz solos is a standard expectation in jazz studies programs but is it an effective and efficient method to learn jazz improvisation, especially for a beginning improvisational player who may have no knowledge of music theory?
I've spoken to many jazz studies students about this and the typical response is that nothing in transcribing solos has carried over into their own jazz improvisation performance. They say they do it because they're required to do it but it is not reflected in their own jazz solos.
You can buy books of transcribed jazz solos that you can practice and practice. What is it, if anything, about transcribing solos yourself that is superior and more efficient than just practicing solos that have already been transcribed? You can study the structure of a solo that is already transcribed just the same as one you transcribe yourself.
I can tell you from my own experience that the only benefit I've gotten from transcribing is to write out a solo that was not otherwise transcribed so I could practice playing it. I didn't learn anything from transcribing it. I learned a lot by practicing it. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2654 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Here's a related question. I often will be listening to a song and when I start my practice, out comes the melody that I was just listening to. The question is, how common is it to be able to play what you just heard? Can most people do that?
Would that be a way to begin for players instead of transcribing, to just learn to repeat back what they hear on the horn? _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | Here's a related question. I often will be listening to a song and when I start my practice, out comes the melody that I was just listening to. The question is, how common is it to be able to play what you just heard? Can most people do that?
Would that be a way to begin for players instead of transcribing, to just learn to repeat back what they hear on the horn? |
When Bill Watrous was teaching at USC he told me that one of his requirements was that his students continuously develop the ability to just pick up their horn and play the melodies of standards. He had a certain number of standards he expected his students to develop each week. Bill never mentioned transcribing to me.
Ultimately, jazz improvisation is picking up the horn and playing melodies and variations of those melodies. The vast majority of learning comes from playing. It's largely a trial and error thing. With practice there are fewer and fewer errors. Learning to play melodies certainly relates to the skill needed to play variations of those melodies.
I think what you would get from transcribing would be, at best, a tiny fraction of what you would get using the same time to play on your horn. If someone wanted to study the structure of solos then studying solos that are already transcribed would be a lot more efficient use of time than transcribing them yourself and then studying their structure. So I don't see transcribing solos as much of a benefit to learning to improvise on your horn.
Transcribing certainly isn't necessary to developing improvisational skill, yet it's mentioned a lot in these discussions. Is it because people are just repeating what they've been told, what they think they're supposed to say? Can someone validate transcribing as a vital part of learning to improvise? In his video on learning to improvise Marvin Stamm talks primarily about learning to play something you've heard by picking up your horn and trying to play it. He doesn't mention transcribing at all. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Tivolian Regular Member
Joined: 22 May 2018 Posts: 84 Location: Upstate New York
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:06 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | Transcribing jazz solos is a standard expectation in jazz studies programs but is it an effective and efficient method to learn jazz improvisation, especially for a beginning improvisational player who may have no knowledge of music theory?
I've spoken to many jazz studies students about this and the typical response is that nothing in transcribing solos has carried over into their own jazz improvisation performance. They say they do it because they're required to do it but it is not reflected in their own jazz solos.
You can buy books of transcribed jazz solos that you can practice and practice. What is it, if anything, about transcribing solos yourself that is superior and more efficient than just practicing solos that have already been transcribed? You can study the structure of a solo that is already transcribed just the same as one you transcribe yourself.
I can tell you from my own experience that the only benefit I've gotten from transcribing is to write out a solo that was not otherwise transcribed so I could practice playing it. I didn't learn anything from transcribing it. I learned a lot by practicing it. |
What books of transcribed jazz solos would you recommend? _________________ Tivolian |
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 942 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Hi, Contact Rich Willy (BopTism), he's here in TH. Book a lesson, buy and use his books, or do both. I took an all day lesson with him about 10 years ago. It was great with lots of great info, books, audio changes, etc. You will not regret it.
Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 984
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Many of the major trumpet artists (saxophone etc) have a book of transcribed solos published and available. Just google it for whoever you want to play along with.
Wynton for example has a few books out
with standards like Autumn Leaves etc.
Since it was mentioned I will share what I think about it.
What can be learned from Transcribing?
Ear training is the big side effect.
The more you do it the better you get.
Granted ear training is learned by listening and playing it back too.
Adding the step of writing it down in notation
may or may not be necessary for that skill to be learned
however it is an inherent side effect of the process.
Style and interpretation is also important to learn with jazz
and sometimes we forget to mention it because
it is so fundamental and engrained.
Once again - listening
Some people are visual learners however.
Transcribing is good for that.
Or seeing an already printed copy of the solo.
The digital age and land of plenty of information
at our fingertips is only a recent thing
There was a time where an aspiring jazz player only had a record player
and quite possibly was hundreds of miles away from the nearest jazz artist.
Transcribing had a place then for sure. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Tivolian wrote: | HERMOKIWI wrote: | Transcribing jazz solos is a standard expectation in jazz studies programs but is it an effective and efficient method to learn jazz improvisation, especially for a beginning improvisational player who may have no knowledge of music theory?
I've spoken to many jazz studies students about this and the typical response is that nothing in transcribing solos has carried over into their own jazz improvisation performance. They say they do it because they're required to do it but it is not reflected in their own jazz solos.
You can buy books of transcribed jazz solos that you can practice and practice. What is it, if anything, about transcribing solos yourself that is superior and more efficient than just practicing solos that have already been transcribed? You can study the structure of a solo that is already transcribed just the same as one you transcribe yourself.
I can tell you from my own experience that the only benefit I've gotten from transcribing is to write out a solo that was not otherwise transcribed so I could practice playing it. I didn't learn anything from transcribing it. I learned a lot by practicing it. |
What books of transcribed jazz solos would you recommend? |
My own greatest influence is Clifford Brown. Here are two books of Clifford Brown transcriptions done by Erik Veldkamp:
https://qpress.ca/product/complete-emarcy-recordings-vol-1-11-brown-transcriptions/
https://qpress.ca/product/the-complete-blue-note-pacific-jazz-recordings/
Erik has a lot of transcription books on his website. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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AndyDavids Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jun 2020 Posts: 176
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