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Why do valves stick with too thin valve oil?


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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou,
From what I've been able to glean from posts previous; there isn't anyone in the UK or Europe who is doing valve refitting. People can look at previous threads to see what that involves.

So if you were to send your horn to Anderson or Osmun, I would wager that the cost would be considerably less than a new instrument.

I don't even think about it any more - if the horn is worth it, off it goes to Anderson. I just sent my 1924 Conn trumpet back there and the results are great.

-Lionel
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Swapping in a new valve really won’t tell you much. Bach valves are hand fit and therefore the size will vary slightly.

Earlier in your post you mentioned a couple of tech possibilities. Why don’t you pick up the phone and discuss whether they have a brass specialist and if they believe they can diagnose and fix the issue? You can also ask for reviews from previous customers.


Hi Little Rusty

Many thanks

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
Let me try saying this a different way
Your horn has tension pressing on the 1st valve tubes and distorting the casing. That is why someone lapped them, and that is why the first re-lapping did not work, and that is why the second re-lapping also did not work.

Heat up the tubes and braces one by one and pop the tension. Some re-soldi g might be required.

Even if you were to rebuild the valve the tesnsion problem would resurface.

If it’s the first valve, the most common pace for tension is the bottom 1st valve slide tube getting pressure from the little brace between the bell tail and the bottom tube.

Next most common would be where the bell tail is attached to the casing.

How many seconds of vacuum are you getting? That is a lot of information for a 2 minute test. Definitely worth the time. If you are getting 10 seconds or more, just pop the tension and don’t worry about the valve fit


Hi Doug

Thanks very much. Sadly I couldn't possibly heat up the tubes and braces myself. I am not a tech of any kind and don't have any tools. I will do the vaccum test when I have a moment. It is the school half term, and I am busy with the children. Yes, of course I could spent the time I am on here looking at my trumpet, but I'd rather not disassemble my first valve trigger with the children hanging over me. Next week will have to do. I'll will post the findings on here when I have a minute.

Best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Lou,
From what I've been able to glean from posts previous; there isn't anyone in the UK or Europe who is doing valve refitting. People can look at previous threads to see what that involves.

So if you were to send your horn to Anderson or Osmun, I would wager that the cost would be considerably less than a new instrument.

I don't even think about it any more - if the horn is worth it, off it goes to Anderson. I just sent my 1924 Conn trumpet back there and the results are great.

-Lionel


Hi Lionel

Thanks very much. I'll give this serious consideration.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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ammonshea
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou - I've been having a problem which sounds as though it is almost identical to yours, and after a considerable number of failures have been shown something which appears to work very well.
A while back a bought a 1940 Martin Handcraft Committee, which, although it needed a certain amount of work, played beautifully. I had it serviced by an excellent technician here in NYC, who adjusted various things and removed all the dents. The only issue was that the second valve would occasionally come up slowly - only when air was moving through the horn, and most often when I was playing slowly.
It did not stick consistently, but still happened often enough to be a pain. I was not interested in selling the horn, since I prefer it to my Bach, and also since, as you expressed, it would be disingenuous to try to sell in less than optimal condition (or I would sell it at a loss).
I tried many different brands of oil, and various viscosities, with no success. When I showed my teacher he fiddled with it for a few minutes and then found a solution.
I have to admit that this fix has been suggested previously, either in this thread or another one, but either in not quite specific enough a fashion, or I didn't understand it. The issue (for me) can be addressed by putting subtle directional pressure on the keys when depressing them.
When I depress the problem key and apply slight pressure forward (toward the bell) the return stroke is quite sluggish, even when no air is going through the horn. However, when I apply a slight degree of pressure toward the mouthpiece the valve does not stick at all.
So it is not so much an issue of hand position, but rather a question of applying pressure in a specific direction when depressing the valve. I found that after spending a few hours playing Clarke studies and scales very slowly, applying this pressure toward the mouthpiece in a somewhat exaggerated fashion the issue cleared up.
It seems possible that this might work for you as well, although it is not obvious that you would need to apply this pressure in the same direction.
Hope this helps.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Lou,
From what I've been able to glean from posts previous; there isn't anyone in the UK or Europe who is doing valve refitting...

A quick web search lists a few brass techs who claim to offer this service in the UK (Will Spencer, McQueens, Hanson Music, Brass-Toff,...). I can't vouch for any of these, but if I were in this situation, I'd ask around for recommendations, especially among top players who've cultivated good relationships with their favorite brass techs. With so many brass players in the UK and Europe, it seems there ought to be somebody who's competent and willing to do this kind of work.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstdenis wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Lou,
From what I've been able to glean from posts previous; there isn't anyone in the UK or Europe who is doing valve refitting...

A quick web search lists a few brass techs who claim to offer this service in the UK (Will Spencer, McQueens, Hanson Music, Brass-Toff,...). I can't vouch for any of these, but if I were in this situation, I'd ask around for recommendations, especially among top players who've cultivated good relationships with their favorite brass techs. With so many brass players in the UK and Europe, it seems there ought to be somebody who's competent and willing to do this kind of work.


Hi dstdenis

Thanks very much, I'll check this out.

Thanks again

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ammonshea wrote:
Hi Lou - I've been having a problem which sounds as though it is almost identical to yours, and after a considerable number of failures have been shown something which appears to work very well.
A while back a bought a 1940 Martin Handcraft Committee, which, although it needed a certain amount of work, played beautifully. I had it serviced by an excellent technician here in NYC, who adjusted various things and removed all the dents. The only issue was that the second valve would occasionally come up slowly - only when air was moving through the horn, and most often when I was playing slowly.
It did not stick consistently, but still happened often enough to be a pain. I was not interested in selling the horn, since I prefer it to my Bach, and also since, as you expressed, it would be disingenuous to try to sell in less than optimal condition (or I would sell it at a loss).
I tried many different brands of oil, and various viscosities, with no success. When I showed my teacher he fiddled with it for a few minutes and then found a solution.
I have to admit that this fix has been suggested previously, either in this thread or another one, but either in not quite specific enough a fashion, or I didn't understand it. The issue (for me) can be addressed by putting subtle directional pressure on the keys when depressing them.
When I depress the problem key and apply slight pressure forward (toward the bell) the return stroke is quite sluggish, even when no air is going through the horn. However, when I apply a slight degree of pressure toward the mouthpiece the valve does not stick at all.
So it is not so much an issue of hand position, but rather a question of applying pressure in a specific direction when depressing the valve. I found that after spending a few hours playing Clarke studies and scales very slowly, applying this pressure toward the mouthpiece in a somewhat exaggerated fashion the issue cleared up.
It seems possible that this might work for you as well, although it is not obvious that you would need to apply this pressure in the same direction.
Hope this helps.


Hi ammonshea

Thanks very much. With your trumpet, this sounds like an issue of the previous owner having put the valves down differently to you. I had successfully been playing my Bach for around eight years before the sticking starting, which makes this seem unlikely, but thanks very much for your kind suggestion.

Since this isn't my primary horn, and I have no problem with any others, I personally wouldn't be prepared to alter the direction I apply pressure to the valves on just one trumpet. I want to play naturally without having to worry about things like this, hence why my Yamaha Xeno has become my primary trumpet.

Thanks very much again.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstdenis wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Lou,
From what I've been able to glean from posts previous; there isn't anyone in the UK or Europe who is doing valve refitting...

A quick web search lists a few brass techs who claim to offer this service in the UK (Will Spencer, McQueens, Hanson Music, Brass-Toff,...). I can't vouch for any of these, but if I were in this situation, I'd ask around for recommendations, especially among top players who've cultivated good relationships with their favorite brass techs. With so many brass players in the UK and Europe, it seems there ought to be somebody who's competent and willing to do this kind of work.


Mr. Spencer was quoted in a previous thread being unimpressed with "local platers." Valve refitting is not just plating and lapping a valve into a worn casing.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been watching for someone from the UK and/or Europe to post about someone there doing what Anderson and Osmun do here. Haven't seen it. If the whole process isn't followed and done correctly, the risk is valves that work worse than when you sent them to someone for work! I have learned the hard way, by the way.
-Lionel
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
dstdenis wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Lou,
From what I've been able to glean from posts previous; there isn't anyone in the UK or Europe who is doing valve refitting...

A quick web search lists a few brass techs who claim to offer this service in the UK (Will Spencer, McQueens, Hanson Music, Brass-Toff,...). I can't vouch for any of these, but if I were in this situation, I'd ask around for recommendations, especially among top players who've cultivated good relationships with their favorite brass techs. With so many brass players in the UK and Europe, it seems there ought to be somebody who's competent and willing to do this kind of work.


Mr. Spencer was quoted in a previous thread being unimpressed with "local platers." Valve refitting is not just plating and lapping a valve into a worn casing.


Hi Lionel

Thanks very much.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
I've been watching for someone from the UK and/or Europe to post about someone there doing what Anderson and Osmun do here. Haven't seen it. If the whole process isn't followed and done correctly, the risk is valves that work worse than when you sent them to someone for work! I have learned the hard way, by the way.
-Lionel


Hi Lionel

I've never seen it either.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
hi lou

Hi again lipshurt

If you are still reading this thread, could I please ask something for clarification purposes.


OR distortion in the casing caused by tension in the valve cluster. This can be caused by presure inside the trumpet case. The Bach double trumpet case is really a bad culprit for this.

Regarding this, I originally kept my trumpet in a single Protec Extreme trumpet case (trumpet lies horizontally in an approximately trumpet shaped dip, so I cannot see this case creating any tension). When I bought my mid 1990s Bach 183 flugel around a year later, it was shipped in an older Bach trumpet/flugel case with a blue interior. I used this until the hinges snapped, and replaced it with an old style Getzen Eterna one, which has a similar enough wrap for my Bach 183 flugel to fit.

I've checked and I bought my Yamaha Xeno trumpet in October 2015 because I had just joined the community light orchestra and needed a trumpet with reliable values, whereas I bought the Getzen Eterna flugel/trumpet case in Feb 2016. If the trumpet slot of my Getzen Eterna trumpet/flugel case is putting pressure on the trumpet, then my Bach trumpet/flugel one, which has a trumpet slot of the same style, must have been doing the same, as the intermittent sticking of my first valves started whilst I was using my Bach/trumpet flugel case. I used the Bach/flugel case for quite a few years (maybe ten) before the sticking started, so I doubt that it is related, but if the trumpet slots in my previous and current flugel/trumpet double case are putting pressure on the trumpet, since the trumpet is from 1979 and was ok until a few years back, wouldn't switching back to my single case allow the tension created by the trumpet/flugel cases to gradually reduce over time?

I'm trying a switch back to my original case anyhow.

Thanks very much.

Best wishes

Lou


Even squeezing the valve body too hard over time can do it, but most likley it is the case, or repairs that have caused tubes to have tension distorting the casing and make more space and less space in different areas of the piston/casing.

this leak test will tell you if you have a problem with valve clearance. basically will tell if im correct or not about your horn (could be wrong:)

​trumpet vacuum test to check for leaks:
This test will tell you how leaky your trumpet is. It checks the general airtightness of the horn but does not show where the leaks are. it checks the whole horn with the exception of the solder joint at the bell tail. It gives a good indication of the condition of the valves, and if there is a leak somewhere in the horn. It is good to know how long any horn can hold a vacuum. new horns should be about 18 seconds. anything shorter than 3 seconds is a big problem. 5 seconds would indicate that your horn needs a thicker oil.
pull the first slide out and cover the top tube with your finger.
with the mouthpiece in the horn, suck on the mouthpiece to make a vacuum inside the horn.
seal off the mouthpiece with your tongue to keep vacuum in the trumpet.
time how many seconds it takes for there to be no more vacuum in the horn at all. This usually takes two or three times to feel where the vacuum is totally gone.
if there is a leak at a solder joint, you will usually get about 2 seconds of vacuum. Really leaky valves can show two seconds or less. The grey area is around 3 to 5 seconds, where the horn may still play ok. sometimes people actually like horns with 5 seconds of vacuum, depending on where the leaks actually are of course.
Any time you have a few bad notes on a horn that don't resonate, or a general lack of centering, or strangely out of tune notes, you could have a leak problem. If your vacuum test shows 10 to 20 seconds, your horn is not leaking. make sure you do it with your mouthpiece in the horn. That area is a potential place for a leak.

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lionel

yourbrass wrote:
I've been watching for someone from the UK and/or Europe to post about someone there doing what Anderson and Osmun do here. Haven't seen it. If the whole process isn't followed and done correctly, the risk is valves that work worse than when you sent them to someone for work! I have learned the hard way, by the way.
-Lionel


Regarding your quote above, I hope you don't mind, but I have started another thread to ask UK/European players regarding this, and have quoted your post above on the new thread. I trust that this is ok, since this quote is present on this current thread anyhow. I have made it clear that it is me asking the question rather than you.

Thanks very much.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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yakbass
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise,

You have described my recent experience with my '55 Strad. I used a certain extra light valve oil (and suddenly the 1st valve started sticking. I called the fellow who cleaned/lubed it prior to the shop I bought it from putting it on the shelf. When I described the issue and what lube I was using he almost went nuts. Seems the lube I was using does not play well with the other synthetics (Yamaha, Hettmans) and mixing the Yamaha lube he used with the stuff I had been using created a sticky mess. He claimed that even using Yamaha lube and slide grease from my brand was enough to create the problem I had with the valves sticking.
I thoroughly cleaned the horn with Dawn dish soap (the orig blue soap) lubed the horn with Hetmans #3 for valves and slides and all was better. YMMV
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highscreamer
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MusicByThePound wrote:
Sort of related to this topic.....

Ran across a New York era Strad that had this letter from 1946 in the case describing new horn valve break in and care. Link(s) below (hopefully one will work).

Not sure if this letter was standard issue from the factory with all new horns or added by the dealer.

Thought using cold cream was an interesting twist.

Had a friend that recommended using Lithium grease then adding a few drops of valve oil. Smoothed out a sticky valve and sealed leaky valves on old horns.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtzfEdwoSCemgTphkGKkZ5L9ALdR[/url]
[url]https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtzfEdwoSCemgTphkGKkZ5L9ALdR[/url]


I know this thread is rather old, but I ran across it while looking to solve a similar problem on a client's 1973 Bach Stradivarius Model 25. The symptoms of this horn were the valves were fast and smooth while randomly moving them while not playing, but would hang on the upstroke occasionally while playing, particularly when multiple valves were pressed and only one valve is released. All three valves experienced the problem. All valves seem to have good compression due to a good vacuum seal when pulling the slide out with a good pop when the valve is depressed. I dipped the horn in Scodwell solution, cleaned thoroughly, valve springs replaced with stiff springs. valve guides examined. The problem persisted at a rate at least once every 10 seconds or so.

The post above recommending lithium grease, by MusicByThePound, led me to try a thin coat of anhydrous lanolin. I use lanolin to lubricate valve slides which I thin out with a drop regular valve oil.

The thin coat of lanolin on the valves, followed by 2 drops of 5-star oil, completely resolved the issue for this particular horn. The action is not gummy in the least. The valves remain fast and smooth without hanging up. We will see how long this lasts before having to re-apply the lanolin, but at least for an hour of play-testing, it didn't hang even once.
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