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Inferiority of monel valves


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Accordion Ron
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an excellent LA Benge (FOR SALE in marketplace) with smooth completely silent valves. I do have to oil them everytime I play however. I thought this horn had the finest valves there were, till I got my new Lawler Model T with "Getzen" valves.
FYI: the getzen valves move just as well with oil, or without oil. That amazes me that they can do that. (of course I wouldn't play without oiling first)
My conclusion is that these Getzen valves must be very well made in order to do that.
Thanks, Roy and Brett for having the best !!!

Ron R...................Massachusetts
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Brett! Let us know what you find with the Bauerfind section. Which Bauerfind is it, stainless steel?
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the warranty does include lapping the pistons into the casings. If it is done here, we do the work. If the replacement is done by a recognized repairman, the lapping is done by them at our expense. So, no we don't just provide a new piston and nothing else.

As for the durability issue, you are taking things out of context and talking about different parts of the horn. In terms of a student horn bell or leadpipe, durability refers to the corrosion resistance. No many players ever wear through a bell. On a valve casing however, durability refers to the hardness and wear resistance. Corrosion can be an issue on a valve casing, but considering it is a component of a moving part, wear is a bigger concern.

Look at it this way, if Ford sold a car with an engine that would last 100,000 miles if you changed the oil every 1000 miles and Chevy sold one that would last the same time with oil changes every 10,000 miles which is better? Sure they both last the same amount of time, but the Ford would require far more work. I'd feel much better about my purchase if I knew it would require less work on my part.

I agree that piston material is not the deciding factor on a trumpet. However, all other thing being equal, it should be a major point.

Brett Getzen
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I almost forgot. I believe I have one of each Bauerfiend. A monel and a stainless set. However, my test (the first at least) will be on the stainless set since I have already tested a monel pistoned horn.

Brett Getzen
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may interject with my personal opinion, I think that Getzen should be commended for going the extra mile on an issue that they believe makes for a better instrument. It's really not an argument that monel valves are terrible, but I think that Brett Getzen has more than demonstrated that nickel plating over nickel silver pistons are better, and I think it's significant that Getzen doesn't raise the price of their horns to cover the added manufacturing expense. I also think that it is irrelevant to bring up the question of whether or not Getzen uses chemicals to remove solder. Getzen isn't competing with the manufacturers who offer that level of hand-crafting (scraping out the excess solder by hand) like Blackburn and Monette or even Schilke, who offer instruments at a higher price point; furthermore, if chemical solder removal is done properly it does not promote the leaching of zinc in red-rot corrosion.

It's interesting that the analogy of automobile manufacturing has been brought up. Some of you may have read about GM scrapping the last few hundred remaining electric cars, at the protest of those consumers who cherished them, and dropping all further plans to pursue the technology. This was done because electric cars have far fewer moving parts, which means that there is very little that needs to be done in terms of maintenance to keep the cars running. Since maintenance and servicing are a large percentage of the automobile manufacturer's business, they lost interest in the electric cars very quickly.
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

regularsopguy wrote:
fact is that prbably 95% of all pistons are monel and the other 5% are nickel, but I have horns with both and both are good, probably equal.


Is this still the case? Can anyone confirm?

Hoping to revive this old thread to learn more about valves.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most pistons today are monel, with the exceptions being CarolBrass blocks in stainless steel and Getzen with nickel plated pistons. The extra hardness of nickel plate compared to Monel does make it a better choice, although with modern oils and proper maintenance, there's no reason why any new piston won't outlast the owner.

It's also worth noting that materials alone don't define the quality of the valve.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

Jenny Lee wrote:
regularsopguy wrote:
fact is that prbably 95% of all pistons are monel and the other 5% are nickel, but I have horns with both and both are good, probably equal.


Is this still the case? Can anyone confirm?

Hoping to revive this old thread to learn more about valves.


Back in the early through mid 20th century I think most, if not all, Conn pistons were stainless steel, and they made a staggering number of trumpets and cornets.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conn's Cry-Steel valves were quite good. I believe they came out in 1957 around the same time as the Connstellation 38B.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

Jenny Lee wrote:
regularsopguy wrote:
fact is that prbably 95% of all pistons are monel and the other 5% are nickel, but I have horns with both and both are good, probably equal.


Is this still the case? Can anyone confirm?

Hoping to revive this old thread to learn more about valves.

The percentages are most likely not accurate. Even RegularSopGuy says "probably". So using these numbers is inadvisable, in my opinion.

Would saying the majority of valve pistons are made out of Monel be accurate? Yes.

Also, as others have stated, Carol Brass makes stainless steel pistons, which are not mentioned by RSG since the thread is about Monel vs Nickel. In addition to their own horns Carol Brass sells the valve blocks to other makers so they probably account for a measurable percentage.

One statement in this thread that we should keep in mind is that James Becker, someone who I respect and I believe most others on here do also, states that the wear he sees in horns with valve wear is in the casing, not the piston. This is sort of at odds with Bret Getzen's, who I also respect, test running both nickel and Monel pistons through 1,000,000 presses where the Monel pistons show wear after 100,000 strokes.

I suspect that some of the dissonance can be explained by stating that the test Brett ran is not really real world.
Getzen wrote:
it’s important to keep in mind that the test was not intended to simulate actual playing conditions.

It does prove that Nickel lasts longer, but the valve oil was only applied at the beginning of the test run. Most of us trumpet players oil our valves more often that every million strokes.
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
The percentages are most likely not accurate. Even RegularSopGuy says "probably". So using these numbers is inadvisable, in my opinion.

Would saying the majority of valve pistons are made out of Monel be accurate? Yes.

Also, as others have stated, Carol Brass makes stainless steel pistons, which are not mentioned by RSG since the thread is about Monel vs Nickel. In addition to their own horns Carol Brass sells the valve blocks to other makers so they probably account for a measurable percentage.

One statement in this thread that we should keep in mind is that James Becker, someone who I respect and I believe most others on here do also, states that the wear he sees in horns with valve wear is in the casing, not the piston. This is sort of at odds with Bret Getzen's, who I also respect, test running both nickel and Monel pistons through 1,000,000 presses where the Monel pistons show wear after 100,000 strokes.

I suspect that some of the dissonance can be explained by stating that the test Brett ran is not really real world.
Getzen wrote:
it’s important to keep in mind that the test was not intended to simulate actual playing conditions.

It does prove that Nickel lasts longer, but the valve oil was only applied at the beginning of the test run. Most of us trumpet players oil our valves more often that every million strokes.


Good points, and yes, Getzen's study and the related write-up and comments here were pretty interesting to read. And yes, his test method seems to fall short of simulating actual playing conditions.

Re: the popularity of Monel, Norman's in the UK wrote the following:

Quote:
Stainless steel is now the most popular choice for mid-range and professional instruments and contains 18% chrome and 8% nickel.


Would you agree with this statement?
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:08 pm    Post subject: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

Boy, the language and accusations one can get by standing up for a certain kind of this or that used in a brass instrument. Could we just not use the "term" inferior? After all, are monel valves subject to massive failure and disintegration at all? Nope. The trumpet I have now has monel valves, it seems to work just fine. I had a Benge from their nickel days, awesome. I have played two Getzens, one Severinsen and one Eterna cornet, awesome, and I have played some Schilkes and I don't know what they use, also awesome. Let's just use what we want and promote what we actually know about and leave everything else alone. Funny, no one ever uses the term "inferiority" when it comes to addressing us as trumpet players!
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

Jenny Lee wrote:
.Re: the popularity of Monel, Norman's in the UK wrote the following:

Quote:
Stainless steel is now the most popular choice for mid-range and professional instruments and contains 18% chrome and 8% nickel.


Would you agree with this statement?

No, I wouldn’t. I believe that the major US manufacturers, Getzen, Bach, Yamaha, Schilke, B&S, all still use Monel or nickel on their professional lines of trumpets.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Jenny Lee wrote:
.Re: the popularity of Monel, Norman's in the UK wrote the following:

Quote:
Stainless steel is now the most popular choice for mid-range and professional instruments and contains 18% chrome and 8% nickel.


Would you agree with this statement?

No, I wouldn’t. I believe that the major US manufacturers, Getzen, Bach, Yamaha, Schilke, B&S, all still use Monel or nickel on their professional lines of trumpets.


Yamaha and B&S aren't American.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
Jenny Lee wrote:
.Re: the popularity of Monel, Norman's in the UK wrote the following:

Quote:
Stainless steel is now the most popular choice for mid-range and professional instruments and contains 18% chrome and 8% nickel.


Would you agree with this statement?

No, I wouldn’t. I believe that the major US manufacturers, Getzen, Bach, Yamaha, Schilke, B&S, all still use Monel or nickel on their professional lines of trumpets.


Yamaha and B&S aren't American.

Oops.
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sounds7
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy mother of Zombie posts Batman. RIP Old Lou
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds7 wrote:
Holy mother of Zombie posts Batman. RIP Old Lou

At least someone is actually taking the time to search them out and read them.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most common failure of valves comes from the corrosive effects of moisture from your breath. Valve oil not only lubricates, but displaces water which when allowed to sit will attack both nickel plate and Monel or Stainless, but also brass casings. Many a time I've measured Monel and Stainless pistons to discover it's the casing, not the pistons that are worn. So any test that doesn't include water and the other chemicals in your breath to form condensation does not replicate real world conditions. My two cents.

Getzen wrote:
it’s important to keep in mind that the test was not intended to simulate actual playing conditions.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yet if you look at the photos of the pistons taken after the test, there is visible wear and corrosion on both without the addition of moisture from blowing through the trumpets during play.

This was not a real world test just like most product failure tests. The addition of valve oil throughout would have extended the life of both sets. At the same time, blowing through would have shortened the life span. I just eliminated both variables and limited the test to materials used. All these years later, I still stand by the method and results.

And I never did it again on the Bauerfind valves. For not her reason than I couldn’t take the sound of the machine running in my office any more.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many brass players go to the lengths woodwind players do after playing to remove excess moisture from the bore of their instruments? The answer is very few. Much more damage than you realize occurs when your instrument is put away wet and stews for countless hours in the case. Corrosion resulting in deep etching of casings in the absence of oil is a real problem I witness on a daily basis. Can it be avoided? Of course, but requires the diligence practiced by our woodwind playing brethren. Mouthpipe swabs, Spit Balls, even compressed air can remove excess moisture before storage. Also getting in the habit of oiling your valves AFTER playing will go a long way to extending the life of piston and rotor valves. Adding a few drops of oil down the leadpipe will coat and protect it from dreaded "red rot". Take ownership of your instrument maintenance and you can enjoy the dividend of extended usefulness. Blaming the material your instrument is made of for it's failure is ignoring the root cause of most common valve issues. It's not so different than maintaining good oral health by flossing and brushing twice a day to stave off tooth decay.

My two cents
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