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Who Else Gets Bummed Out About Fundamentals? And...


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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeorgeB wrote:
I am not speaking for Patrick, but I can tell you that how you perform them and get the most out of them is the first thing you learn from a professional teacher, and once learned you never forget. I am guessing you are self taught.

Nevermind, forget I even asked.
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
GeorgeB wrote:
I am not speaking for Patrick, but I can tell you that how you perform them and get the most out of them is the first thing you learn from a professional teacher, and once learned you never forget. I am guessing you are self taught.

Nevermind, forget I even asked.


Forgive me if my reply sounded sarcastic. I didn't intend it to be that way. I was just stating a fact that most of we trumpet players know to be true.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeorgeB wrote:
Forgive me if my reply sounded sarcastic. I didn't intend it to be that way. I was just stating a fact that most of we trumpet players know to be true.

My apologies for the snarky reply. It's not that simple for me unfortunately. I've had great teachers for most of my trumpet playing life, but they had a poor student. I finally got a breakthrough a few years ago and all the things I used to struggle with (range, tone, soft playing, intonation, everything) come relatively easy now...but playing fundamental exercises diligently still diminishes my embouchure, not improve it. So I know I'm doing something wrong. But since I currently don't have a teacher, I have nobody else to ask. Maybe you're right and my first teacher told me exactly what to do...but that was almost 30 years ago. Still, I shouldn't have replied like that.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeorgeB wrote:
hibidogrulez wrote:
GeorgeB wrote:
I am not speaking for Patrick, but I can tell you that how you perform them and get the most out of them is the first thing you learn from a professional teacher, and once learned you never forget. I am guessing you are self taught.

Nevermind, forget I even asked.


Forgive me if my reply sounded sarcastic. I didn't intend it to be that way. I was just stating a fact that most of we trumpet players know to be true.

Not this trumpet player. I have had very very little in the way of formal training as a trumpet player. I had 6 months of "weekly" lessons at the Armed Forces School of Music (when my instructor wasn't busy going to the gym or doing something else on my time) with an instructor I didn't get along with and with whom I never felt I meshed with a good student/teacher relationship.

Most of my lessons came from playing alongside of other, better players, picking their brains, taking their advice, and then applying some of those concepts in the practice room.

Where the rubber really hit through road though, my formative years between 5th and 12th grade when I attained a level of proficiency good enough to get my in the Army Band program as it was at that time, (I'd never have been good enough to get in as it is now) that was all done on my own through a lot of self-observation and trial and error. I've been told I'm one of the lucky ones - most people don't get that lucky.

In any case, my approach to fundamentals is to work to try to dial them in so that everything is cleaner and tighter. When I work on long tones, I'm working to develop more resonance and focus in my chops and sound. I don't know how else to do it other than to say focus in on what's going on between you and the horn, and how that applies to the the playing you are doing. I can't see how that could be detrimental to your embouchure unless you are using too much pressure, or unless you have some serious enough chops issues to where things are so delicately balanced that merely working on fundamentals causes a problem.

I'm also not sure that you had great teachers - a good teacher can reach the student and inspire them to work to be better. Ultimately though getting better on the trumpet is a journey of mostly self-discovery. All a teacher can do is to help illuminate the path you are going to have to take. The work itself has to come from you.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a while my kids did violin, and that's an instrument where it's nearly impossible to "teach yourself." Go on any of the violin boards and it's pretty clear that anyone at all competent in mainstream violin spent a lot of time with solid teachers. In trumpet, there are some self-taught people, but honestly many of the really good players also grew up in musician families or worked with incredible teachers fairly early. Teachers give you short cuts and make life easier, and part of that is helping us know our weak areas.

Teachers have helped me learn things I should have already known, and they also remind us of our weak spots. For me the help I've had is:
-I had one appointment with a chopdoc that confirmed a change I needed to make.
-Had one piccolo appointment with a guy here who also helped me get started.
-I had a jazz guy who helped me conceptually and got me working on things like playing on the 2-4, working on new scales and chords, and starting on the Abersold books.
-I am working with a guy now with some military background and music ed who has helped me work on a mix of skills. As a "school band player" I never got much beyond Arban's, and also had not worked on many of the solo skills (rhythm, dynamics, etc.).

I do think how we do things varies. Some people do the same warm-up/practice routine their whole life. Others never play the same routine day-to-day. I like TH because there are different models. Many of us will never play at a professional level, but we can improve dramatically from where we are now. To me 2.5 hours of fundamentals a day seems like overkill, but I could be wrong. I think for me variation is important.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
In any case, my approach to fundamentals is to work to try to dial them in so that everything is cleaner and tighter. When I work on long tones, I'm working to develop more resonance and focus in my chops and sound. I don't know how else to do it other than to say focus in on what's going on between you and the horn, and how that applies to the the playing you are doing. I can't see how that could be detrimental to your embouchure unless you are using too much pressure, or unless you have some serious enough chops issues to where things are so delicately balanced that merely working on fundamentals causes a problem.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. My embouchure change is recent enough that I still occasionally struggle to get it right, and particularly so when I play fundamentals. I find it hard to play the fundamentals without tension and proper breathing, even if I start out relaxed. Muscle memory is probably a big part of it. I'll try your advice and see if it helps. Thanks for sharing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
In any case, my approach to fundamentals is to work to try to dial them in so that everything is cleaner and tighter. When I work on long tones, I'm working to develop more resonance and focus in my chops and sound. I don't know how else to do it other than to say focus in on what's going on between you and the horn, and how that applies to the the playing you are doing. I can't see how that could be detrimental to your embouchure unless you are using too much pressure, or unless you have some serious enough chops issues to where things are so delicately balanced that merely working on fundamentals causes a problem.


Patrick, your approach as stated is pretty much how I was taught by a truly excellent professional trumpet player. I guess I just learned it a bit earlier.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. My embouchure change is recent enough that I still occasionally struggle to get it right, and particularly so when I play fundamentals. I find it hard to play the fundamentals without tension and proper breathing, even if I start out relaxed. Muscle memory is probably a big part of it. I'll try your advice and see if it helps. Thanks for sharing.

I can see that. I guess the only thing I could recommend is that you take things really slow and easy. I've never gone through a chops change - thought about it a few times, but I never wanted to have the kind of downtime it would take to do it, and I wasn't sure what I would sacrifice in my playing. As it is, I'm a strong player, but my range is limited - D/Eb is about it. The goal, if I ever decided to do a chops shift, would be to try to expand on that upper register. The question then would be how it would impact sound, which has always been pretty solid.

I've always found that long tones and articulation exercises have been good for me to dial things in to gain additional resonance and focus in my chops, and not only does it not add tension, but it helps to reduce tension, provided I approach them carefully.

GeorgeB wrote:
Patrick, your approach as stated is pretty much how I was taught by a truly excellent professional trumpet player. I guess I just learned it a bit earlier.

I still have a lot of gaps in my playing. I think if I had gone the collegiate route, I'd likely have become a better player because a college instructor would have held my feet to the fire and forced me to work on the things that are weaknesses in my abilities. I never did that when I was younger - a lot of players don't tend to work on the things they don't do well, and they tend to super-reinforce the things they do. I was lucky enough that those weaknesses didn't prevent me from being able to play the music I had to play for my job, but they do prevent me from being able to do things like the last variation of the Arban's "Carnival of Venice."

Again, I was lucky enough that I was able to get by pretty well on natural ability, and being intuitive enough to be able to self-correct a lot of those issues through focused practice on my own.

If I knew then what I know now....I'd have come out of HS a much better player, that's for sure.

These days I no longer have a goal of being a more technical player. My goals now are simply to not backslide, and to maintain a level of proficiency that allows me to be an effective player for the things I need to do. That still means hitting the fundamentals pretty hard though - I did 45 minutes of basic chops stuff again last night.

Gotta say, this Shires Model B takes a lot of the work out of it. It's amazing how quickly things are tightening back up.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I can add is when players would go to see Arnold Jacobs or Vince Chicowicz, they found it was not an embouchure problem, but an air flow issue.
In some cases, one is his/her best teacher, in others, he/she is the worst teacher.
The reality is some players are not going to be good to outstanding trumpet players and the is true for other instrumentalists as well.
Do the best you can.
R. Tomasek
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it, Patrick is that you are doing pretty damn good. I'd be pretty pleased with myself if I were in your shoes.
Good luck, my friend.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
The reality is some players are not going to be good to outstanding trumpet players and the is true for other instrumentalists as well.
Do the best you can.
R. Tomasek

You bring up a really good point. I try to extend a word of caution to the folks who come into playing trumpet in their adult years, or embark upon a comeback as an adult. In my own experience learning to play drum kit in my early 30s, I had wrongly assumed that because I was already a proficient musician on the trumpet, that I'd be able to immediately cross apply those skills to the drums. The reality ended up being different - musical concepts were easy, but I still needed to develop and hone my chops to a certain level of consistency before I could really call myself a "drummer," and that process took about 5 years. I really worked on it too. Don't get me wrong - I was playing weekly with a church praise team and I was doing ok, but it took 5 years before I'd come to a level of control and consistency to where it sounded good in general when I'd listen to the playback.

There's also the aspect that not everyone who approaches an instrument has the ability to become proficient with it. I've known a number of people over the years who just love playing trumpet - it's a major driving force in their life, they put in the time, they work hard - and yet, for one reason or another, they just can't seem to rise above being mediocre.

Progress is not linear, and it's not as simple as: time + practice + lessons = proficiency.

A person can with dedication and focus at least achieve a level of proficiency good enough to play in church ensembles, community bands and that kind of thing, but moving up into the semi-pro to professional realm is another matter altogether. Even with the successes I've had, I've never been good enough to make one of the premier military bands - my time in the Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps came at a time where the focus was more on height/weight/ability to march as it was on being proficient on the instrument. Nowadays the FDC is just as hard to get into as any of the other premier military bands.

GeorgeB wrote:
The way I see it, Patrick is that you are doing pretty damn good. I'd be pretty pleased with myself if I were in your shoes.
Good luck, my friend.

George, I've been very lucky and blessed to have been able to attain a level of proficiency to be able to do some of the things I've done. I never got to some of the places I would have liked to have gone as a musician, but I've done well enough.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick, you're spot on with so many of these observations. I was especially taken with your drum competency comment.

I took a 39-year break from playing trumpet in HS to picking it up again. I'm 7 and a half years in to my comeback and I am JUST NOW telling myself I am mastering some of the fundies. And, given my schedule, there are days when 40 minutes of fundamentals are all the horn time I get in a given day. But when you run a scale faster than you ever thought you could, it gives you incentive. When you put together a catchy melody out of the air, it gives you incentive.

I think we need to not only know where the trumpet fits into our lives right now, but we need to know where our lives are going regarding the trumpet. I play nearly every day, and it is a very important part of my mental health regimen. But just as I will never be better than a bogey golfer because I don't have time to play more than 9 holes a week, I'll likely never get much past beyond being a guy who can improv a little I-IV-V song and top out at Eb most days. Is that mediocre? Probably, but I call it competent mediocrity, given how much time I have.

And part of competent mediocrity is knowing what to present. I get lots of comments on some of my scale playing from people who are out on their exercise walks at the school where I do most my practice. They're impressed I'm "that fast."

I don't tell them I am hell on wheels with my F and G scales! Selling one-accidental sizzle is all part of showmanship when you're a working stiff!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fifty years ago, from 1953 to 1965 I learned to play, formed a 5 piece combo, joined the union and for 12 years I played music for money, all part time while working a full time job. I loved every minute of it until gigs started drying up in the 60's. That's when I put the horn down and concentrated on my career.

These days I play trumpet for pure enjoyment in a community band and a few sessions with friends. It keeps my old ( and I do mean old ) brain working fairly well. But playing in your eighties is no easy task and because I have nothing to prove, I take it nice and easy but I still like to improve and probably always will.

I lost my wife to cancer in 2012 and damn near went crazy until I found music again. It was exactly what my soul needed. Playing the trumpet ? Man I just love it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are so many gold nuggets and gems coming out of this thread!

Edit: I apologize for these long posts - I'll see if I can be a bit more succinct moving forward.

Croquethed, you bring up another good point - knowing your limitations and showcasing what you do well.

Things I don't do: Play big band lead, play the solo book, play 1st book on anything. (That last one I "can" but I try to leave it to people who are better at it than me.)

Things I DO: Play 2nd in a brass quintet or concert band, play 3rd/4th books in a big band, play the trumpet lines in a party band

Long ago I realized that my best strengths and assets as a player were as a section/utility player, supporting a good lead. I don't see anything wrong with that either - not everyone has that lead player mentality. A good friend of mine, graduate of Peabody Conservatory, is a lead player. We sound great when he's on lead and I'm playing 2nd in a quintet. We've reversed it on occasion, but it's always better when he's playing 1st and I'm on 2nd - those just seem to be the roles we're built for.

Bringing this all back to fundamentals though, I think it has been my experiences playing drums that have put things in the perspective for me that no matter what we play, we're only combining fundamental building blocks together to make music.

As a rudimental snare drummer, a person will independently practice their various rudiments - there are 26 Standard American Rudiments:

Long Roll (some call it a double-stroke roll)
Paradiddle
Lesson 25
Flam
Flam-accent
Flamacue
Ruff
Drag
Numbered stroke rolls (5, 7, 9, 11, 13)
Etc.

Drummers work on mastering those building blocks so that when they play music, ultimately a combination of those building blocks in a particular order, it comes across as a cohesive whole. When you break it all down, that's all we're doing with the trumpet:

Tone production
Fingerings/Notes
Attacks and articulation
Flexibility
Time/tempo

If you have an awesome sound, but your articulations are foofy, or you can't synch your articulation to your fingers, it's not going to be good. Conversely, if your articulation is clean and synced with your fingers but your tone is diffuse and fuzzy, it's still not going to be good. And again, if you have good tone, good fingers and synchronization, but you have a wacked-out sense of rhythm and time, it's still not going to be good.

This is kind of a side topic, but time and tempo is something that I find to be sorely lacking in wind players. I always had a good sense of time and tempo, but that tightened up even more when I started drumming.

Invest in a metronome and USE IT! I find that using an electronic metronome/click, particularly one that has the ability to divide, sub-divide and accent the "1" is particularly useful when working out passages with quirky rhythmic figures.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
I can see that. I guess the only thing I could recommend is that you take things really slow and easy. I've never gone through a chops change - thought about it a few times, but I never wanted to have the kind of downtime it would take to do it, and I wasn't sure what I would sacrifice in my playing.

Basically I was at a point where I had little to lose. Playing above C in staff took effort, the G above it was the top of my range on a good day, and in general I sounded like a duck about to lose at checkers. I also hadn't made any progress practicing in years. So with the summer vacation coming up, I'd just read some stuff about Bill Adams' method and I figured I'd try it.

I tried your advice yesterday and it went a little better than usual. I think I'll ease in a few fundamentals throughout my practice first, rather than playing many in a row. As you say, taking it slowly.

trickg wrote:
Edit: I apologize for these long posts - I'll see if I can be a bit more succinct moving forward.

Don't. Your posts are insightful and informative. Thank you for taking the time to write them.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
Basically I was at a point where I had little to lose. Playing above C in staff took effort, the G above it was the top of my range on a good day, and in general I sounded like a duck about to lose at checkers. I also hadn't made any progress practicing in years. So with the summer vacation coming up, I'd just read some stuff about Bill Adams' method and I figured I'd try it.

I tried your advice yesterday and it went a little better than usual. I think I'll ease in a few fundamentals throughout my practice first, rather than playing many in a row. As you say, taking it slowly.

I would tend to think that trumpet is potentially one of the most frustrating instruments because if there is a fundamental problem with the embouchure preventing one from attaining what many would consider normal or expected proficiency, then something else needs to happen - it can't just be fixed by piling on more practice.

It sounds like you had a fundamental issue. I don't know what that's like - I don't say that to be arrogant, it's just the truth of it. When I was about halfway through my 7th grade year, my ability with the horn jumped almost exponentially, and it happened very quickly. I had another big jump in 9th grade. I was doing a lot of playing, but not a lot of actual practicing - I didn't really start working on fundamentals until I was a Junior in HS, although I did practice my band and jazz band music a lot. I played a lot because I loved playing - I was better at it than my peers and it came very easily to me.

Not everyone gets that lucky.

It sounds like you may have rounded a corner in your journey with it. Now the tough thing will be to maintain continuity in your efforts so that you do some work every day. Try not to get discouraged - you'll have some days that are better than others. I know in my own efforts, sometimes my playing mechanism, for whatever reason, just isn't working. Those are the days I cut my practice short, put the horn in the case, and go do something else.

Keep us posted on how it's going!
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joelf
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Who Else Gets Bummed Out About Fundamentals? And... Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
So, today was Monday. I practiced for 2.5 hours, divided into three sessions. It was me using my orchestral mouthpiece (my plain old Schilke 15) to practice... basic fundamentals. The entire time.

Man, I didn't want to even practice that third segment today. I was feeling burned out and just wanted to ignore the fact that Max Schlossberg was calling my name... lol

I'm a comeback player who has been back playing trumpet since January 2019. Some of you folks have been playing consistently for WAY longer than me. So, how many of you get bummed out about doing your basic fundamentals or revisiting them?

More importantly: what do you DO about it when this burnout or boredom strikes?

Sometimes, I start losing focus before a practice segment is even over (if it's something I've done hundreds of times). But, I continue pushing forward until I'm done.

How in the world can I keep things fresh? Should I spontaneously switch up my routine when I'm feeling ultra bored with it?

I don't know. I just feel like there's a way to make the repetition of revisiting your basic fundamentals less boring. I know that I can't "master" the trumpet without repetition and correct practice. But holy crap, sometimes I have to ignore a feeling of burnout of dread when I'm pulling out my trumpet on Mondays... because I know it's "fundamentals day" for me each week, which means playing things I've played hundreds of times, maybe even over a thousand times.

So what do you guys do about this? I know I can't be the only person who opens my case with a haggard frown knowing I'm about to play long tones for the 800th time. LOL

How do I make some of this repetition a little bit less soul crushing?

P.S. Sometimes, it doesn't feel like this and I'm motivated. But we all know that nobody has infinite motivation.
Dunno the answer. Since I'm a beginning brassman but lifelong musician I need to work on building embouchure and breath control. So I slog along with the buzzes, long tones, etc.. But it IS boring as hell. I play some ballads or diatonic-type tunes to break the monotony, with mixed results. It's like the good sound I get warming up is gonna vaporize---and sometimes it DOES, damn it!

The other problem is not that I'm in Bb land I'm playing those tunes fingering in Bb as if they were in concert. I want to play What's New in concert C---but can barely execute in Bb.

This is going to require persistence; patience----and more fundamentals...
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry Freedman wrote:
if you just habitually do the fundamentals without paying attention they will be boring and probably ineffectual. If you give them the same amount of concentration you would give, say, a new piece then you might actually get something out of them even if you have been doing them for years


Not true.

What I'm saying is that, BECAUSE I'm concentrating very hard on them, I only have so much focus and energy to do that with. So, this means that if I'm doing 2 and a half hours of fundamentals, even if I split them into three sessions, by the third session I'm unable to focus like I could at the first two sessions.

I'm not doing anything aimlessly or without any purposeful concentration. That would be the opposite of my problem.
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Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've posted in the past about having good days and bad days on the horn. Last night was one of those off nights. I got the horn out, everything felt stiff and fuzzy, and getting into my fundamentals I realized that it was going to be one of those days.

I probably could have kept pushing - certainly if I had a gig that I had to play I would have had to make it work, but last night I felt that discretion was the better part of valor, I did some low long tones for a bit, then put the horn away - hopefully it goes better tonight.
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
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GeorgeB
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Apr 2016
Posts: 1063
Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
I probably could have kept pushing - certainly if I had a gig that I had to play I would have had to make it work, but last night I felt that discretion was the better part of valor, I did some low long tones for a bit, then put the horn away - hopefully it goes better tonight.


I wondered what you did when you have a bad day. When I got them in the past I use to try and work through them, but sometimes that only made things worse. Now I just put the horn down and go at it the next day. Most of the times that will do the trick, but now and then I can end up with two bad days in a row. I never had many bad days when I was younger, so maybe having two bad days in a row is an age thing.
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