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The Last of the Wild Thing Line


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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that a lot of people have it in their minds that just because BAC purchased all of this tooling that they are going to just revive every dead brand that Kanstul made.
What have they actually announced, and what does everyone who doesn't work at BAC talk about online ?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are options for continuing the Wild Thing - as other formerly Kanstul-dependent boutique makers have now demonstrated.

Flip has been sent IMs, emailed, and I expect probably reads these posts, but lets all remember that being a boutique maker is no picnic - its a hard, expensive, and often underappreciated (until you stop) pursuit based more on passion for the craft than any potential material reward.

If the man wants to retire, thank him for what he has given us, and respect that. He has already given the trumpet community far more than 99.99% ever will, and whatever he wants to do next, including maybe a long well-earned vacation, I support him in it.

As for the more generic topic of former Kanstul assets and BAC:
1) remember please, Mark sold off random assets. Not everything went to BAC (though key tooling for the Wild thing mostly, but not 100%, did).
2) Kanstul was ultimately done in by a business model that allowed for onesee-twosee orders that have NO margin. The set-up, tooling support, etc. just to make a couple horns is cost prohibitive if passed along. Kanstul assumed a volume over time, and the financial results demonstrate that presumption was overly optimistic.
3) BAC is a true custom maker. They will build, and if needed help design, whatever you want - but their business model requires a volume sufficient that they will not lose money (like Kanstul lost). Horns like the Wild thing just never generated that kind of volume. If someone wants to front the cash to buy 3 dozen horns in a batch built on former Kanstul tooling on spec, I suspect there are folks at BAC who would at least be willing to discuss such an undertaking. But 1 or 3, no.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

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sounds7
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4) American manufacturing Or thats at least why I bring it up.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of questions for Musicman2K and/or Oldschool:

Has B.A.C acquired a valve honing machine? Can they now build valve sections in-house?

Does B.A.C. have the jig for the Wild Thing trumpet valve section (I admit I don't know if it's different from other Signature valve section jigs)?

Do they have the mandrel for the thin wall .470" tubing, plus the associated .464", .460" and outer slide tubing for the rest of the horn and its accessories?

Do you, Musicman2K, have the skill to build a Wild Thing valve section?

I am not trying to be contentious. I simply don't know the level of expertise at B.A.C. I've never seen any of their (your) product.

Flip has said a few times that Zig told him that the Wild Thing valve section was the hardest to make. That design gives the WT its responsiveness, at least in part, and would be essential to any new instruments wearing the Wild Thing brand.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't speak to any of that, other than suggesting that, given who musicman2K apprenticed to, and the brass making legacy that master and others felt him worthy to assume, I would be respectful of his training even if valves turn out not to be his specialty. But it does leave me curious as to what you see in the specifics of casings and pistons that would so critically alter the behavior of the horn.

Sure, mass and mass placement impact inertia and response - but weighted caps have proven a substitute for 2-piece casings for example, so when it comes to mass +/- at the center of the system, there is some flexibility in how one gets there. Other than that, a Wild Thing valve set seems rather generic - pretty much indistinguishable from a 1927 Holton valve set (just emphasizing how little has changed over time) in terms of port placement, port routing, length, bracing, knuckle radii, even cap mass - pretty straight forward. The only difference visible to the eye is the slightly longer bell tail knuckle on a Holton (OK, I suspect the WT valves are fit much tighter, and don't have a phosphor bronze piston surface like 1927 Holton did - but that just means they work and last better).

The lightweight slides will, IMO, have a noticeable impact on response far greater than any minor variance in piston or knuckle, even greater than casing mass with cap. The thin wall slides are nothing new - you can buy a Carol .470 complete core assembly with that feature off-the-shelf. (though the porting is a little different).

Most of all, the pairing of a 43 leadpipe flowing into what Bach would call an MLV slide (according to what I have read - haven't seen precise measurements) to the almost bugle-like taper of the unique bell would have a very dramatic effect on feel, intonation, and tone that I would worry about above all else. Positioning the valves correctly to not disrupt that relationship would be the greatest concern (other than quality fit and action) I would have with any valves.

I have what appears to be a horn from Kanstul in that bore, using that bell, with what appears to be the same valves - great horn, but different from a Wild Thing, for which I look to top end geometry (I also use weighted caps for more inertia there). So I am really curious what characteristics of the valves you would attribute the unique nature of the Wild Thing to? (Pretty much every instrumental concept is transplantable and transformable - future designs could benefit)
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Ron Berndt
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,

The only detail I know that differentiates the WT valve block from the other Kanstul Signature valve sets is the ultra thin inner tubes used for the stubs and throughout the horn. This can be viewed by removing any of the various tuning slides offered and looking at the end of the bottom tube. I assume this altered the ID of the outer tubes and ferrules, as well.

This was paired with a heavier .022" thick brass, rather than Kanstul's normal .020" for the bell. This gave it enough thickness to be reliably drawn over the large mandrel and hold up under buffing. The extra weight in the bell gives the horn a lot of stability throughout its dynamic range, while the lightweight valve tubing gives it great agility and flexibility, especially with the original #25-O lead pipe. The #43 is easier to play accurately and delicately. It also has more cut, but doesn't overpower a normal trumpet section to the same extent as the larger horn does.

You are correct about valve placement. The WT valve set occurs further down the length of the horn by about 1-1/2". That's why the bell ends up closer to the player. It took me awhile to feel comfortable with that visual change.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Kanstul was ultimately done in by a business model that allowed for onesee-twosee orders that have NO margin. The set-up, tooling support, etc. just to make a couple horns is cost prohibitive if passed along. Kanstul assumed a volume over time, and the financial results demonstrate that presumption was overly optimistic.

That business model worked fine when Zig was filling orders for Boosey & Hawkes and all the other OEM labels he was manufacturing for. As the market changed going into the 21st Century those accounts dwindled and that's when Kanstul got into trouble. Also, Zig didn't seem to be all that concerned about the company's longevity after he was gone, which led to some bizarre aspects of his estate as well as his refusal to bring in management and marketing talent that might have sustained the business after his death. As a result the company was basically doomed - even if his heirs had managed to keep going without liquidating, the Covid crisis would have certainly shut their doors.
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Linda
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought my wild thing flugel on May 5, 2019. serial number 45182. It was one of the last three Flip told me, that Kanstul ever made, two of them were already sold when I bought mine. This one he said, was the last made by Kanstul. So I bought it. I consider myself very fortunate.

Linda
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