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There is a Disservice Being Done to Young Trumpeters


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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kalijah, my first tendency was to be snarky, pointing out that your eight word description ("The "wedge" is simply high abdominal exhalation effort") is far inferior to watching master trumpet player Bobby Shew explain, discuss, and demonstrate the concept for an hour.

Similarly, for me "ee" tongue placement hasn't lifted my notes substantially but I'm far more reliable now hitting the top notes in a sequence because I've learned to place my tongue differently. I had seen "tongue arch" described here but had no idea how to reproduce it.

I get there are gimmicky methods, and hucksters, and overly doctrinaire proponents of certain systems, but for me having youtube has given me a chance to hear from some of the players I most respect and get insights into systems my own teachers haven't know well. Yes, all of these can be a waste of time (like TH), but I have learned lots of little tips that are useful (and it makes washing the dishes go faster for me).
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:

I'm sure that online teaching, via Zoom or something along those lines, can work reasonably well - though not as well as in person.


On the first portion of what you said, yes many young students who don't have access to a good private teacher will go look for YouTube videos on 'how to improve range' or 'how to improve tone'. The advice for this stuff tends to be something that probably won't work even if it's something like tone. But in terms of range advice, that's somehow even worse than the tone advice.

By the way, with video chat private lessons, they can be VERY effective as long as both the teacher and student have a decent microphone and halfway decent camera. You could use a webcam and it would be fine.

As for as microphones go, the teacher and student would need to be using something AT LEAST around the quality of a Blue Yeti USB Microphone. Preferably, an actual XLR mic would be even better.

This is because, let's say the teacher has a decent or good mic, but the student is playing into a horrible mic (like a built-in laptop mic)... the teacher is going to not be able to hear any of the nuances of the student's playing and the lesson will become less valuable than it would otherwise be.

But if the better the mic the student is using, the more helpful the teacher can be.

Video chat lessons can be nearly equal to in-person lessons if both teacher and student have good microphones. Accurate audio is important. But in the event that both teacher and student are using literal studio microphones in video chat lessons, the only thing missing that in-person would do better is work on things like dynamics.

And of course, if the student or teacher is using the worst camera in the world, that would also pose a problem.

The video equipment needs to be halfway decent. The microphone needs to be at least decent, preferably better than decent.

I know because I got most of my private lessons through video chat. I started with a Blue Yeti mic, but then I upgraded to an actual studio microphone for later lessons, allowing my teacher to hear literally every nuance of my playing. It was very valuable both before and after my microphone upgrade.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Isn't flow a function of volume and time?


Yes. Flow is volume per time. So flow is "volume rate", so to speak.
Volume refers to a cumulative air amount and depends on both flow achieved AND time sustained. The ACTUAL air "volume" expended is flow x time, for a constant flow.

Flow is a consideration in the instant, and is independent of the duration. Example: a half note requires half the air volume of a whole note similarly played. But the flow is the same at any instant during the playing of either of those notes if the same pitch and loudness.

Quote:
Whenever any of my teachers has said something along the lines of "use more air" I've always taken that to mean I need to push more air through the embouchure - increase the air flow.


But one can only directly control the air pressure via more or less exhalation effort. The flow may or may not increase, depending on the system, pitch played etc. But, all things equal, that is, a constant resistance; to increase the flow, one must increase the pressure first.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:


As for as microphones go, the teacher and student would need to be using something AT LEAST around the quality of a Blue Yeti USB Microphone. Preferably, an actual XLR mic would be even better.

Not sure if you're clear that an XLR is a kind of connection not a type of mic.

Common mic types are condenser, dynamic, ribbon which can all use XLR cables.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
Crazy Finn wrote:

I'm sure that online teaching, via Zoom or something along those lines, can work reasonably well - though not as well as in person.


On the first portion of what you said, yes many young students who don't have access to a good private teacher will go look for YouTube videos on 'how to improve range' or 'how to improve tone'. The advice for this stuff tends to be something that probably won't work even if it's something like tone. But in terms of range advice, that's somehow even worse than the tone advice.

By the way, with video chat private lessons, they can be VERY effective as long as both the teacher and student have a decent microphone and halfway decent camera. You could use a webcam and it would be fine.

As for as microphones go, the teacher and student would need to be using something AT LEAST around the quality of a Blue Yeti USB Microphone. Preferably, an actual XLR mic would be even better.

This is because, let's say the teacher has a decent or good mic, but the student is playing into a horrible mic (like a built-in laptop mic)... the teacher is going to not be able to hear any of the nuances of the student's playing and the lesson will become less valuable than it would otherwise be.

But if the better the mic the student is using, the more helpful the teacher can be.

Video chat lessons can be nearly equal to in-person lessons if both teacher and student have good microphones. Accurate audio is important. But in the event that both teacher and student are using literal studio microphones in video chat lessons, the only thing missing that in-person would do better is work on things like dynamics.

And of course, if the student or teacher is using the worst camera in the world, that would also pose a problem.

The video equipment needs to be halfway decent. The microphone needs to be at least decent, preferably better than decent.

I know because I got most of my private lessons through video chat. I started with a Blue Yeti mic, but then I upgraded to an actual studio microphone for later lessons, allowing my teacher to hear literally every nuance of my playing. It was very valuable both before and after my microphone upgrade.


Video lessons are ok for some things, but in general they are not sustainable long term for developing a great trumpet player. There is no substitute for a student and teacher playing together in the same room at the same time, duets, in unison, call and response, etc regardless of microphone equality or video quality. I taught online lessons for over a year out of necessity because of the pandemic, have taken online lessons, and fortunately now have all my students in person again. Maybe im old fashioned, but to me the magic of live performance, in person lessons, and people in the same space making music together will never be matched by technology.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
Search on YouTube... 9 results out of 10 will be bullcrap that doesn't work unless you already have good chops, or bullcrap that doesn't work even if you DO have the chops.

1 out of 10 results will be actual good advice. Go look. I'm not joking.

I think at least part of the problem is describing what one is doing in such a way that it conveys what one is doing, and conveys the totality of what one is doing. There's a lot going on and trying to pin down the reality of what you're doing vs what you might mistakenly *think* you're doing is hard. Probably a lot of the YouTubers mean well but they themselves don't fully understand what they're doing.

I've never seen a Maynard Ferguson "how to play high notes" video or article that I found really enlightening. He talks about stance, breathing, but leaves out what's going on with his embouchure. It may be that he didn't really understand what he was doing. Saying it's "all about the air" is absolute nonsense. It isn't "all about" any one factor - it's about all the parts of the whole.

As I understand it Doc struggled for a long time with his range - in his frame of reference being an F/G player wasn't enough - even after he was an established pro. It took him years and a lot of experimenting to find the key for him. I would assume he asked people what they did.

For example, in my experience talking about "Ah eee" tongue stuff doesn't really fully describe what needs to be done, it *sort of* hints at it but for me it requires much more engagement than what "Aah eee" would seem to imply - *and* it needs to happen while I'm doing certain things with my air and my chops.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
...
I think at least part of the problem is describing what one is doing in such a way that it conveys what one is doing, and conveys the totality of what one is doing. There's a lot going on and trying to pin down the reality of what you're doing vs what you might mistakenly *think* you're doing is hard. Probably a lot of the YouTubers mean well but they themselves don't fully understand what they're doing. ...

---------------------------
That is why I believe it is very important for some people (e.g. those for whom the 'just do it' method doesn't work) to START with an understanding of what basic functions a 'good embouchure' should perform. With an understanding of those functions, the player is in a better position of learning and practicing HOW to make them happen.

A good teacher can detect when a player is straying off course, and give guidance about corrections. For 'self-taught' players it requires constant awareness of what they are doing, recognizing and correcting problems.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teaching trumpet and learning trumpet is hard enough.

- Learning and teaching, in person, is the best situation, as the teacher can see and hear things that are difficult otherwise. It's still a challenge, though.

- Doing it via Zoom or whatever, regardless of the audio equipment, is an additional layer of difficulty. Can the teacher really see what's going on with a webcam? Can they really hear with a Yeti Blue, or Snowball, let alone with a built in mic?

- Finally, if you're just trying to learn from videos on YouTube, with no feedback, or from posts here on Trumpet Herald or reddit, god help you.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YouTube is a fantastic educational resource. It’s transformational. I can attend and reattend master classes by the greatest musicians and teachers in the world, dead or alive. I can attend concerts all over the world and find amazing musicians that I would have never otherwise learned about.

It doesn’t replace good one on one teaching, but we live in a wonderful time to grow as musicians. As you age, you forget how dumb you were as a kid. Thanks to YouTube, the musical sophistication of young musicians is much better than when I was coming up.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseLindE4 wrote:
YouTube is a fantastic educational resource. It’s transformational. I can attend and reattend master classes by the greatest musicians and teachers in the world, dead or alive. I can attend concerts all over the world and find amazing musicians that I would have never otherwise learned about.

It doesn’t replace good one on one teaching, but we live in a wonderful time to grow as musicians. As you age, you forget how dumb you were as a kid. Thanks to YouTube, the musical sophistication of young musicians is much better than when I was coming up.

I'm not sure about the latter about musical sophistication, I didn't see that so much - but despite what I said in a previous post - YouTube IS an amazing resource - for lectures and performances and such.

I don't think you can really learn to play trumpet - without other instruction - from YouTube, but it's a great resource for sounds and listening, if not exactly instruction.
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Unkle_Willy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject: Range Reply with quote

As I'm sure you both are aware - range involves more than experience and embouchure musculature. There are changes that can be made to the mouthpiece profile, the bore of the instrument (back-pressure), and also diaphragm and even arm strength play factors into range capability.

HackAmateur wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
Hi Hack,

I agree with a lot of your post. It is totally true that there's no gimmick or course that can guarantee super range. There is no way you can blast out double Cs if you were stuck on a high C before in one week, like you said (although you might be able to touch that double C or at least G quietly with a few tweaks to your approach).

It's also true that there are a lot of players working their range between D and double C, I am also one of those. I have played up to double C a few times but it's very quiet and unusable in real-life playing situations.

I somewhat disagree though about a couple things: the point about magically unlocking an octave of range out of nowhere, to be honest, I have had days where I have "magically" been able to play much higher than other days, and I try to really figure out why that is the case. And through that process I eventually make those notes more consistent, more centered, and more usable. I don't think it's really about muscular development past the high school level. There are many dedicated hard-working college trumpet majors that haven't figured out high notes yet, and it's more about technique than strength in my opinion. But I like your post and I'm just adding my 2 cents.


I appreciate your feedback on this. By the way, glad to see another person working on range between High D and Double C other than just myself!

I have great range days that seem 'magical', too, sometimes. Those are the days I blast out a Double G# (G# above High C). However, it's not REALLY magic or a miracle. It's just that I can play that note sometimes, therefore I have the potential to play it regularly, but I just haven't unlocked that potential yet.

I'm working on things just as you are. I just wish more people on our level were represented online. That way, people desperate for higher range don't get scammed with bullcrap courses that cost an arm and a leg.

I'm fine with somebody offering TRUMPET LESSONS. But, if you're telling somebody that your lesson will give them an entire octave of range, that's a scam, not a real trumpet lesson.

I'm trying to bright light to that particular point, here.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Range Reply with quote

Unkle_Willy wrote:
As I'm sure you both are aware - range involves more than experience and embouchure musculature. There are changes that can be made to the mouthpiece profile, the bore of the instrument (back-pressure), and also diaphragm and even arm strength play factors into range capability.


Yeah of course.

Mouthpiece Profile is a big one I've noticed anecdotally at least. My Bob Reeves s692s doesn't add semitones to my range, but it makes the semitones I DO have a lot easier than playing on my Schilke 15.

My High F# comes out bright and strong on the Bob Reeves and, as long as my chops aren't exhausted, easily. On the Schilke 15, it comes out not as bright or strong (mouthpiece profile), but even with fresh chops, it feels like a "max effort" note.

So definitely, I understand especially that mouthpiece profile plays a role. A shallower cup generally makes the range you do have easier to play and the high notes are (normally) stronger than on a deeper cup. This doesn't mean anything is a "cheater". The only "cheater" way to get more range is to practice correctly and actually include high notes into your practice.

Much harder is embouchure change, but that's kind of a last resort for most people unless their current embouchure is truly bad.
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Strobe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on range-especially the comments on being limited at D Having played since 4th grade through college consistently then playing regularly but not in a band for about 20-25 years and now a "comeback player" 6 years in (now early 50's) it has been an experience rebuilding my range and thoughts on music as I view it from a more mature??? perspective. I could play high E easily with an occasional "real" G in college (but sometimes struggled) but never played higher even in practice. When I started playing again I found 3 things that helped my range in no particular order (and most importantly focus less on the range now and much more on the music and sound quality):
1) Changed my technique/ embouchure and learned to relax while playing higher
2) Tried a new mouthpiece (used a Purviance 5*K4 since Middle school and switched to a 4*7 with a slightly shallower cup and wider rim). Lost some flexibility in switching from high to lower notes but it did not have a major impact
3) Did range exercises - arpeggios with increased range and had a few favorite songs above the staff - La Vie en Rose and Sleepy Lagoon where I tried to play the music and not focus on the range even though playing at A,B C# E and F.
4) Focused on thinking or imagining the pitch of a note and then playing it to help soloing and placement.
Not a magic fix by any means but I can easily play an F and G now and can hit an A or B on good days with MUCH less practice time than I did years ago. Now at least I know I can go higher without limits IF I am willing to put in the work...aah always work and no easy fix!
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doitallman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only amateurs care about range.
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delano
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

doitallman wrote:
Only amateurs care about range.



Great comment, I would add: Only SOME amateurs care about range..
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="doitallman"]Only amateurs care about range.[/

And pros who are limited to orchestral section or don’t care for first or lead. That was kind of a snarky statement. And although you are probably a good player you have to admit that having a full range of 3 octaves from low g to hi g is desirable - playable range. Are you saying that having and working on that range is for amateurs only? I feel that the statement leads to mediocrity and a desire to stay within your own personal comfort level. I doubt many who rose above felt the way you do. Pros that I personally knew cared about it all, and tried to play everything put in front of them. If notes that challenged them appeared to them they learned how to get them or just didn’t get called again. Which pros do you know that don’t care about this?
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wat if we change it to:"

"Only ignorant or inexperienced trumpet players put range above everything else."

would that be something you could agree on?
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
Wat if we change it to:"

"Only ignorant or inexperienced trumpet players put range above everything else."

would that be something you could agree on?


Ignorant in that they don’t have knowledge or perspective - 👍
I just think that putting anything above all else should be built on good proficiency in all areas. Guys like Ferguson, Brisbois, Bergeron, Dowedsell (? sp) may not have excelled in range if they had not had solid skills all around. But in today’s music I hear entire sections have high range when needed, a lot higher than hi g - when I played my best doing hi g was very acceptable but I don’t think that will play anymore. I’m not a listener of much classical music, Gershwin is about as fas as I go, but I would imagine that any good orchestra principal or his second will have a good hi g with an ungodly big mouthpiece. I am just saying that if you aspire ( and I do even tho it’s not realistic ) that you have to work it all. But I’m not a pro and never made my money with trumpet, so take my opinion as my own. So yes I agree with your statement as revised as long as people don’t think ignorant means stupid as they often do. Nothing wrong with working any skill as long as there is balance. Now if I could just get the arthritis out of my fingers🤯
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod, I admire you passion. Is there anything more important when it come harnessing / mastering the trumpet?. For me the lure of the high notes is that - like formula 1 motor racing - feel comfortable with these and everything else feels easy.

You wrote
Quote:
But I’m not a pro and never made my money with trumpet


3 days ago I went to the Metro tunnel in Helsinki. Everyone was wearing masks. I felt nervous but I thought "what the hell? " I had "The Equalizer" with me (My Number 2 trumpet) I played for 25 minutes and left 7euros richer. I felt like a King.

Stay safe - steve-in Helsinki.
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

furcifer wrote:
Lots of great info here. Talking about technique has been extremely helpful to me because over all these types of discussions I get new little ideas to try and integrate from here and there, and that's what it takes to discover one's own "technique" that is tailored to their own unique physiology.

Good advice is good advice. Fundamentals are always important. Free advice is always worth every penny, LOL But sometimes quite a bit more. We have enough "qualified" trumpet players online in this day and age that most "bad advice" usually gets shot down pretty quickly. How fortunate we are - it sure as hell wasn't always that way...

But I don't like presumptions, conflations and straw-man arguments.:

A gimmicky "claim" doesn't mean that the method inside is totally without merit. That's just advertising. Welcome to planet Earth; we have advertising claims that are not entirely true. Caveat emptor: YRMV.

I've never actually seen a "gimmick" METHOD, and without specifics, this is a straw man. All the ones I have seen worked for somebody.

I've never seen a high-note method that didn't at least reiterate good fundamentals in it somewhere.

In well over 40 years, I've never seen a young player looking for "gimmicks" who hadn't ALREADY been told by their very first teacher that there are none, and to concentrate on fundamentals and consistent practice.

I've also never known a trumpet player that didn't get frustrated or bored with fundamentals at some point, LOL! So we always try new stuff! Over 40 years of "fundamentals" for me; so hell yes, I'd still try chicken-blood sacrifices if I thought it had ANY chance of giving me a solid Double C, LOL

I've also never seen a rant post in a trumpet forum that didn't presume that "they" don't practice, "they" don't focus on fundamentals, "they" are all on a mouthpiece quest, "they" are all hyper-focused on range to the exclusion of every other aspect of playing, etc., etc., and yet EVERY respondent is miraculously never one of "them", so just who are these cats, anyway? I keep hearing about "them", but I've never actually met one of "them". Do "they" have their own facebook group? LOL

OK, so back to teaching young players: 90% of teaching young players is just teaching young PEOPLE to be more responsible, exercise better judgement, and prioritize their daily activities better. So.... How many "adults" are lacking in these areas, too? Yeah, that's what I thought. We can all benefit from being better humans.

Teaching motivates me to be a better example in a way that nothing else does. But I'm not a full-time teacher because I'm a player, first and foremost. Took a while for me to figure that out in my college days. And I'm more of a musician than "strictly pro". The best version of "professionalism" is a personal standard, not a mercenary bent. My first Director always said, "'Band' means 'together'." So I concentrate on being a better example of consistent practice and fundamentals and intelligent approach to the high range, and just playing with other cats. If I make money, that's great, but it's not my only income source, and that's another thing: Teaching young people a broad base of life skills and how to hustle will help ensure that playing continues to be "worth it" - enriching their lives in ways ultimately more important than monetary. This all may sound a little off-topic, but it's really not, because it all adds up to PERSPECTIVE. Gaining better perspective on life in general from a mentor enables the young player to digest the "advertising" and still make intelligent choices.

"Technique": I really like the concept of the "aperture tunnel" and "leverage" and firmly agree that everything happens there and in that way. This goes right along with what Wayne Bergeron has said and probably the reason why Arturo Sandoval can play on the receiver without a mouthpiece.
But almost everything discussed about this could perhaps be better understood if there was a disclaimer about whether the person giving the advice is an "upstream" or "downstream" player in the first place - at the very least. It often changes the context about which lip needs to be doing what. Like SO many players in the last century, I was a "forced-downstream" player until I finally read some more modern treatises that confirmed my suspicion that being a natural upstream player is perfectly OK, and yet involves different advantages and disadvantages for those who more naturally play that way. I made the switch about four years ago, and, as a "high G" player for so many years, I am now a "high A" player, and no longer feel limited - and that is HUGE for me. Not many cats can add a full step to their useful range after they've been playing for so long, much less feel like the "hard cap" is just no longer there. My biggest challenge is still consistent practice, and working range in small increments that doesn't ruin my endurance for eveything else in my routine, or vice-versa.


Great post
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